Sony is bleeding money - business strategy discussion

I agree a case can be made either way - it's all rather subjective. But in terms of raw numbers, it's proven that sequels are more likely to return a profit than new IPs (hence why every publisher milks franchises), and so any investment in new IPs is a good chance of throwing money away. And in terms of raw numbers, Sony threw more money away on new IPs than MS did. That may be less risky than MS doing exactly the same, but it's still an industry standard risk that Sony have been more willing to gamble with (and so build up a reputation for diversity which supports a particular niche of console gamers).

Not so much risk, but Sony had no choice but to fund new IPs. Their established IPs weren't making (in general) as much as Microsoft's established IPs. So there was less incentive for MS to experiment trying to find a new cash stream. IMO, it was just as risky for Sony as it would have been for MS. It's just that there was more reason for Sony to take on the risk than there was for MS. That said, even MS took some risks on new IP. Not all of them AAA, however.

Regards,
SB
 
I'm not sure why they are reducing the division and not out right getting rid of it. It seems to be a noose around their neck maybe not as big as the computer or tv divisions but still seems to be quite large.
I presume Sony's internal figures likely show their high-end handsets are doing well enough (i.e. making a profit) but the operations feeding the low-end and mid-range markets (where margins are razor thin) are negating those. No company would willingly exit a premium market that helped Apple make $18Bn profit last quarter.
 
I presume Sony's internal figures likely show their high-end handsets are doing well enough (i.e. making a profit) but the operations feeding the low-end and mid-range markets (where margins are razor thin) are negating those. No company would willingly exit a premium market that helped Apple make $18Bn profit last quarter.
It may have made apple 18b last quarter but what was the profit of everyone not Apple and Samsung. . The market seems to be really hurting sony's bottom line and not helping it and it hasn't gotten better in the last few years.
 
It may have made apple 18b last quarter but what was the profit of everyone not Apple and Samsung. . The market seems to be really hurting sony's bottom line and not helping it and it hasn't gotten better in the last few years.

Everybody chasing the mass market - low-end and mid-range handsets - is skimming a living. Even when you're selling tens of millions of devices profits are low because margins are razor thin. The high-end market is quite different.

If they can make products that appeal they'll do well there. Samsung have lost a fair bit of the high-end market because their handsets are not premium. Specs are good, materials and design are not. I'm not saying Sony should aim to be the Vertu of the Android market but they could be the Apple of the Android market.
 
Everybody chasing the mass market - low-end and mid-range handsets - is skimming a living. Even when you're selling tens of millions of devices profits are low because margins are razor thin. The high-end market is quite different.

If they can make products that appeal they'll do well there. Samsung have lost a fair bit of the high-end market because their handsets are not premium. Specs are good, materials and design are not. I'm not saying Sony should aim to be the Vertu of the Android market but they could be the Apple of the Android market.

If you make an Android phone you have no choice but to chase the low to mid range. Noone but Samsung (and to a much lesser extent Lenovo) is making any serious money at the high end for Android. And even Samsung is starting to see reduced profit in the high end. That's because the market for Android phones is shifting to the low-mid range.

Apple sells well in the high end still because there are NO options for a low end iOS device. If you want an Apple branded iOS device, you have to pony up the cash for it.

Android never had a chance at dominating the high ASP market. Similar to how Windows never had a chance of dominating the high ASP market (for all Windows devices) compared to MacOS/OSX. Once you allow 3rd parties to sell devices running the same OS, you have a situation where 3rd parties will release devices that are just "good enough" for the vast majority of people. And devices that are "good enough" for the masses will never be highly priced models. And because of that you will dominate the overall market, but your ASP will never be as high as the competitor that focuses on only selling high priced models. See Window's domination of the PC market versus MacOS/OSX, see Android's domination of the Smartphone market over iOS. iOS share of the smartphone market will continue to shrink (volume may remain high) while Android's will continue to expand because of this.

Google could have gone with the Apple model for selling smartphones. But then they never would have had a chance against iOS. And had they somehow managed to be successful, Androids marketshare at best would now be similar to iOS and not the current Android market share. There's a limited number of people on the planet willing to buy high end devices. If you then somehow opened that up to 3rd party sellers, each manufacturer would have an increasingly smaller slice of the high end smartphone pie.

Sony's problem is that they never established themselves as a serious competitor to Samsung at the high end. They were too late and their handsets originally weren't as good. If we use a PC analogy. Sony is to Samsung in the smartphone arena as Gateway is to Dell in the PC arena. None of those companies can easily compete with low cost Chinese manufacturers. They need mid-range and high-end sales to sustain their business. Samsung and Dell can get those sales due to a combination of inertia (got in there early enough with good enough quality), reputation, investment, etc. Sony and Gateway (before its demise, it's just a shell brand now) cannot. You can argue all you want that Sony "could", but the market has shown that it doesn't really care enough to sustain them. Similar to Gateway (and many other once prominent PC brands).

Sony will attempt to hold onto their smartphone division, but there is nothing they can do to keep it.

Let's put this another way. Sony is abandoning the low end market. Slowly withdrawing from the mid-range market. And very slowly reducing their presence in the high end as they attempt to bring the division to profitability. And doing that they suffered even more massive losses that were far greater than their projections. Leading to them having to revise their financial forecast for the company yet again, and not in a positive direction. Compare that to Microsoft who are completely focused on growing their brand. How? By focusing on the low end. Slowly growing the mid-range. And occasionally releasing a high-end smartphone. End result, while new, their phone division is making a profit. And while they aren't an Android phone maker competing against other Android handset makers, they are still in competition again Android handset makers. Their one benefit, which also happens to be a detriment, is that they offer an alternative phone OS and experience.

Chasing the high-end at the expense of the low end is going to get you nowhere in a maturing smartphone market. As I've stated before, the smartphone market is close to reaching a similar point as the PC market. The high end has been mostly exploited (similar to PC in the late 90's early 2000's), and most of the growth is going to be in the low end with some in the mid-range (similar to PC in the 2000's). With its explosive growth, its timeline is greatly compressed compared to the PC market, but it is following a similar trajectory. And it's only a matter of time before it reaches a similar market saturation as the PC.

In other words. It's the wrong time to attempt to focus on only the high end. And an extremely hard sell to focus on the low end with other basically similar Android low end handsets (much like the PC market during the 2000's when you saw numerous established PC players exit the market only to see the rise of players focused on the low end, like Asus, Acer, etc.). Or, like TVs.

Regards,
SB
 
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If you make an Android phone you have no choice but to chase the low to mid range. Noone but Samsung (and to a much lesser extent Lenovo) is making any serious money at the high end for Android. And even Samsung is starting to see reduced profit in the high end. That's because the market for Android phones is shifting to the low-mid range.

So there's "serious money" to be made in the high-end but the only viable markets are the low-end and mid-range? That's absurd. There is certainly a contested high-end Android market because Samsung, LG, HTC, Lenovo and Motorola have all dabbled in it. What non of them have done is taken and held it with great products after great product.

I also don't see evidence of Android phones shifting to low-mid range, I see now evidence of contraction of the high-end Android market, nor would it make any sense unless Android phone buyers are somehow genetically, culturally or economcally disposed to buy cheaper handsets that people buying high-end iOS or Windows Phone handsets.

Apple sells well in the high end still because there are NO options for a low end iOS device. If you want an Apple branded iOS device, you have to pony up the cash for it.

Apple sells in the high end because they have a basic economic model that all hardware will have a 30% margin. If you can sell 100m products with a 30% profit margin, you don't need (or want) to chase 500m with a 5% profit margin. Having more customers isn't always good, you have more people to support for start and start costs money. As the economics of the Android market has shown [relative to iOS] people wanting cheap phones generally aren't as willing to part with as much money on apps, media and other content.

Android never had a chance at dominating the high ASP market. Similar to how Windows never had a chance of dominating the high ASP market (for all Windows devices) compared to MacOS/OSX.

Again you seem to be pigeon-holding a set of OS users. My first laptop was a cheap HP, my second an expensive Sony Vaio, my third a very expensive Dell XPS2, my fourth a relatively inexpensive 12" Apple PowerBook G4. There, and have always been, expensive Windows PCs but the problem with Windows PC, a problem somewhat shared by Android handsets, is that the basic perceived value has been decimated by multiple manufacturers racing to the bottom in terms of pricing. But this does not mean that there still doesn't exist a nice juicy high-end market although traditionally that was gaming and as game sales show, that's a shadow of it's former self on Windows.

Google could have gone with the Apple model for selling smartphones. But then they never would have had a chance against iOS.
Not everybody wants iOS and I'd wager that the vast majority of smartphone buyers don't have a strong preference for a particular OS unless they're particularly invested in it because of software purchases of hardware accessories. Google can't compete with Apple because Apple bought much of the technology in their phones which gives them a distinct advantage. Google don't have a CPU team or a team competent in finger-print scanning. Their strength is in software.

Sony's problem is that they never established themselves as a serious competitor to Samsung at the high end. They were too late and their handsets originally weren't as good.

And Sony's problem, like everybody's problem, was trying to do everything. There was no focus and they were spreading themselves trying to accommodate the low, medium and high-end of the market. When you drop, in particular, the low-end devices you don't have as many considerations about whether your software/firmware platform will run well (or at all) on cheap ass devices. You have less devices to support overall, you can then provide better after-sale support. One of the biggest downsides to Android is the lack of significant OS updates (without jailbreaking) and it's not all the fault of Google and the carriers. But when's the incentive when profits are so low to start with? The vast majority of Android handsets are fire-and-forget in terms of support.

Sony will attempt to hold onto their smartphone division, but there is nothing they can do to keep it.
Sony won't "attempt to hold on their smartphone division". If it's making sufficient profit, Sony will retain it, if not it will go the way of other product divisions that aren't making money. They could certainly carve a good niche in the high-end Android market. They have a massive semiconductor division, a great optics division for cameras and they also have display technology partnerships to draw on. This separates them from the likes of Lenovo, HTC, Microsoft/Nokia and many others. Decent and consistent products that stand out and are good value for money will sell well.

The reason Sony are doing so badly is the same reason everybody is doing badly in the market. Lack of differentiation, too many devices and too little focus. Apple's approach isn't voodoo. They spend a lot of resource nailing one or two phones to be released each year which they actively support for the next 2-4 years with OS upgrades. It's the same approach taken in many premium markets. Ferrari and Lamborghini aren't going to bang out as many distinct models as Ford. They don't need too.
 
All those advantages didn't help them in the tv or pc industry.

I think cell phones for sony are dead. They aren't really even an option here in the states and they aren't going to be able to make a market for themselves when you already have Samsung and apple sitting on the top and then lg , ms , htc and motorala all trying to push upwards themselves.

There are just to many companies competing and I don't see anything that sony has that will give them a market advantage.

But hey we can revist this in 2 years when sony dumps their handset business.
 
All those advantages didn't help them in the tv or pc industry.

Perhaps because those components are not particularly significant in TVs or PCs which are primarily built from commodity parts that Sony do not make.
 
Top selling bluray title in the US alone:
2009: Star Trek : $59M
2010: Avatar : $126M
2011: The Lion King : $67M
2012: The Avengers : $105M
2013: Despicable Me 2 : $93M
2014: Frozen : $157M

I'm not seeing the trend predicted in this old 2008 thread, nor the constant Holodisk will kill bluray, or flash carts will kill bluray, or netflix will kill bluray:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/blu-ray-is-dead-heckuva-job-sony.44563/

I'm seeing all rental places closing though.
 
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