So, what happens if Xbox2 hardware ends up inferior to NES5?

[Megadrive1988]

Saturn was more powerful than the PSX despite the lack of dedicated 3d hardware. Watching VF3 on the Saturn was surely a beauty back in the day, it's a shame it was never released.

man Sonic you are a tease!

(started a thread for this since its way off-topic for this thread)

 

[Fox5]

Legion:

> probably the same thing that happened with the n64 and gamecube.
> Nintendo will show us a load of tech demos/screen shots of games that
> will never be released.

Going back I think you'll find that more than a few of Nintendo's tech demos turned into actual games. Certainly more than M$ and about equal to Sony (although none of Sony's demos were really indicative of the final software IIRC).

for one, the early demos Sony showed prior to PS2 launch were VERY VERY much worse than software actually available for it, even first generation. All the early demos were running on real PS2 hardware and it showed because Sony themselves still didn't really know how to use it, in fact those demos have been surpassed by orders of magnitude by software commercially available for the platform. Unlike MS and their pre-rendered Cyborg fight thing, or Nintendo's Zelda, Donkey Kong etc......

Well, while the n64 mockups were certainly misleading, I don't think the gamecube ones were. Looking back at them now, most of the gamecube demos don't look all that impressive, including the zelda one. The Wind Waker seems far more technically impressive to me than the zelda demo, and even the link in soul calibur has better texturing, though not sure about polygon count. The most impressive of all the gamecube demos(outside of that rebirth demo, which I think was mostly prerendered) was probably the star wars one, and that came out and has been surpassed.

BTW, Saturn may have had more raw power than PSX, but it made trade offs in lack of features to get that. While PSX may not have been able to do many of the saturn tech demos, there are far more PSX games that the saturn would never have a chance at doing a 100% or probably even 75% replication of.

As for that M2, well, that website I found of it...are those really pictures of it? I wouldn't even say it's on par with PSX from the graphics in those pics, at least nothing that extra memory on the PSX couldn't have fixed. It seems to have bad filtering, a mix between n64's over blurriness and psx's point sprite and texturs that break up. Any actual good screenshots of the M2 available? I read something about some early demos that were very impressive, and far beyond anything the actual M2 ever did since they were just prerendered mockups.

 

[Crazyace]

Although I like the Saturn

I would have to disagree - the Saturn was not as powerfull as the Playstation.
There were some really cool things you could do with the twin SH-2 processors and you could even use the DSP chip ( though not really for 3D transformations ) but you could also make the GTE sing on the PS with well tuned code.

 

[Sonic]

It's all a matter of opinion and interpretation. The Saturn lacked many 3d features found in the PSX and had to do things mostly in software. It might just be that SEGA devs at the time were much more competent than any found on the PSX. Still, I'm one to argue that the PSX had better graphics than N64 in a few games such as Tekken 3 and a few others. I recall Ridge Racer 4 looking amazing next to the ugly POS looking (great game though) Gran Turismo 2. Still, the Saturn impressed me very much late in its life and especially towards the end. I never got a chance to see Shenmue in person except for once, but that wasn't even as impressive as VF3.



M2 was interesting. I recall seeing cow demo on it years and years ago. Maybe I can dig some stuff on it.

My apologies if these have been posted already.

http://www.system16.com/konami/hrdw_m2.html

http://www.gamezero.com/team-0/whats_new/past/m2-press.html

http://nfg.2y.net/games/polystars/

http://assembler.roarvgm.com/Panasonic_m2/panasonic_m2.html - You know I had forgotten that D2 was originally meant for the M2 hardware. It's been a while since I've seen pics of it.

http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/3dom2.htm

http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/may97/0112.html

 

[Fox5]

Well, any new hardware is always interesting(almost), but those M2 pics still don't seem to eclipse the psx, though it's kind of hard to tell with what little is available. However, even if it was more powerful, it probably would have turned out like the more powerful systems and the SNES, everyone being trumped in graphics by a game like donkey kong country.

 

[Tagrineth]

Insane Clown Posse is very lighthearted and meant as humour, and they dress as clowns. ^^;

Added: Though they do have some heavy, surprisingly meaningful stuff hidden in there.

But it definitely isn't for everyone.

Insane Clown Posse is fun, but meaningful? What's meaningful about singing "I'm sooo pissed" in Thai?

Find someone with the CD "The Amazing Jeckel Brothers" and listen to the track, "Terrible".

 

[PARANOiA]

I think everyon'e forgetting that the power of a console is largely unrelated to a console's success. There's pretty much only one factor that counts: marketing.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Well, any new hardware is always interesting(almost), but those M2 pics still don't seem to eclipse the psx, though it's kind of hard to tell with what little is available. However, even if it was more powerful, it probably would have turned out like the more powerful systems and the SNES, everyone being trumped in graphics by a game like donkey kong country.

M2's specs were drawn up in 1993-1994, put into silicon in 1995-1996.

The realtime capability was fairly impressive. Although M2 was not a generation beyond PSX and N64 like the Dreamcast was, M2 belonged to the same generation. it was simply stronger than PSX and N64 by a factor of 2 to 3 times. it had more memory and more texture cache. while the results did not live upto the prerendered demos floating around at the time, it did manage to live upto the realtime demos. M2 was a solid piece of kit that worked. it was better than a 3Dfx Voodoo1 also. the arcade games developed on it were first generation games. compare them to first generation PSX games like Ridge Racer and Toshinden.

if PSX and N64 are the Genesis and SNES respectively, the M2 would have been the NeoGeo.


M2 Power Crystal

another nice M2 page (not in english but lots of pics)
http://tuvgm.online.fr/Dossiers/3DO/

 

[Fafalada]

OK, I'm 28 and I don't even know what ICP is...

And don't you just feel like an old geezer now?

one last time, lets compare the rough estimate of each chipset's power:

Peak numbers are interesting, but I am a little at a loss what the estimates stating "everything on" are supposed to mean exactly?
Mostly asking because the way I understand "everything on" they sound overestimated by quite a bit to me.

 

[Tahir2]

I remember the M2 and then I remember Trip Hawkins... trust me NVIDIA have nothing on that guy for PR-ability.. heh

 

[Megadrive1988]

Oh yeah Trip Hawkins. the master of hype.

the thing is, he was sitting on some really good technology, not vaporware, dispite what anyone wants to think about 3DO and Hawkins.

Microsoft thought their engineers and IP were good enough to buy.

 

[Legion]

Going back I think you'll find that more than a few of Nintendo's tech demos turned into actual games. Certainly more than M$ and about equal to Sony (although none of Sony's demos were really indicative of the final software IIRC).

generally the least impressive ones. One specifically was a game which was cancelled, another was a tech demo never run on GC hardware at the time of its debut. We were just promised that it could run on the GC hardware.

When did i say anything about the importance of a techdemo becoming a game? Nice strawman .

Certainly more than MS? I think even you can say with confidence MS has delivered more in the form of graphics than has nintendo. What ever happened to that adult link and that nice looking Donkey Kong?

 

[Legion]

Legion:

> probably the same thing that happened with the n64 and gamecube.
> Nintendo will show us a load of tech demos/screen shots of games that
> will never be released.

Going back I think you'll find that more than a few of Nintendo's tech demos turned into actual games. Certainly more than M$ and about equal to Sony (although none of Sony's demos were really indicative of the final software IIRC).

for one, the early demos Sony showed prior to PS2 launch were VERY VERY much worse than software actually available for it, even first generation. All the early demos were running on real PS2 hardware and it showed because Sony themselves still didn't really know how to use it, in fact those demos have been surpassed by orders of magnitude by software commercially available for the platform. Unlike MS and their pre-rendered Cyborg fight thing, or Nintendo's Zelda, Donkey Kong etc......

London-boy are you suggesting early PS2 techdemos may have been faked?

 

[Megadrive1988]

the real Xbox did not live up to the MS (or pipedreams?) CGI demos showed in March 2000 for the Xbox conference. I am speaking of the Robot-Raven demo and the Afro Thunder demo. However, the realtime demos done on GeForce2, Xbox surpasses that, naturally.

As for Gamecube, the only demo from spaceworld 2000 that directly became a game and was as good as the demo, was Rogue Squadran 2.
everything else either never became a game, or wasnt as good as the demos.

I'd say that that Sony PS2 games have surpassed most of the PS2 tech demos shown in 1999. mainly because the PS2 tech demos were all realtime, I believe. with the possible exception of the FF8 dance scene. I recall reading here on Beyond3D that a workstation with lots of memory was employed to assist the early PS2 hardware in doing that demo. the lighting was controlled in realtime by the PS2 but a workstation stored the many frames of animation. actually thats a rumor not confirmed in any way.


I expect many demos to be shown for PS3-XB2-N5 that the actual consoles never live up to. yet still, the next consoles will be a nice leap, probably 50~100x better performance than current consoles.

 

[Legion]

the real Xbox did not live up to the MS (or pipedreams?) CGI demos showed in March 2000 for the Xbox conference.

and which demos are these?

As for Gamecube, the only demo from spaceworld 2000 that directly became a game and was as good as the demo, was Rogue Squadran 2.
everything else either never became a game, or wasnt as good as the demos.

or became a game and wasn't as good as its demo. Wether it became a game or not is irrelevant graphically speaking nintendo isn't delivering.

What game did "Mario 128" become? The Zelda title we saw never came into being. What happened to the Raven Blade and that Donkey Kong demo? What of Kameo, and the other graphically impressive demos?

Many of these titles you mention which did infact become games were hardly impressive. Certainly nothing that would make me think Nintendo would deliver on a timely basis games of high graphical quality if they had a system more powerful than the xbox2.

I'd say that that Sony PS2 games have surpassed most of the PS2 tech demos shown in 1999.

Really? I've never seen the vast majority of those tech demos running on a ps2 before. Especially not the rendering of the doctor's face from the FF movie.

what exactly where the rest of these tech demos?

mainly because the PS2 tech demos were all realtime, I believe.

I recall hearing quite the opposite.

with the possible exception of the FF8 dance scene.

I would also suggest that the rendering of the doctor's face and the duck demo may not have been either.

I recall reading here on Beyond3D that a workstation with lots of memory was employed to assist the early PS2 hardware in doing that demo.

Which of course wasn't a method of misrepresenting the PS2's hardware.

the lighting was controlled in realtime by the PS2 but a workstation stored the many frames of animation. actually thats a rumor not confirmed in any way.

until i see a disc with the tech demo on it i will remain suspicious

 

[rabidrabbit]

The PS2 early tech demos. They did look amazing on their day but really, same or better quality has been reaced on games already.

- The FF ballroom dance scene: Just look at a game like Soul Calibur 2, i believe bacically the dance scene could be made with SC2 engine and even improve upon it. The dance demo had just two characters and a background comparable to those in SC2, the speed and quality of animation has been met in many games already (JAKII).

- The old man face demo : This was not the doctor from FF movie (at least not what was in the final final fantasy movie, maybe a concept?).
It had no background, just the face. Just look at Silent Hill 3 and character 'Doug'. In it there seems more detail being done in texturing, but then there is also the background and often other character (plus game engine limitations).
Edit: Looking at the'old man demo' picture, there seems to be also much of the detail done on textures, plus the eyebrows and hair are just blocks of polygons with textures (contrary what was claimed in another - locked - thread). The pic also says the face uses 100 000 polygons.

- The Duck on a sink demo: Nothing overly complex there, just a simple scene demonstrating water, physics and reflections. Agree, there has not been a game featuring all those elements reaching the same high quality, but that is not to say a PS2 could not render just that scene without or with minimal interaction.

- The 'furballs' demo: I believe this was for demonstrating the particle effects. Need proof - Look at Z.O.E.2

- Gran Turismo demo: Surpassed by GT3, Burnout2, Colins, WRC's...

 

[London Geezer]

Legion, i think u're speed-reading the posts, cause u replied twice already contesting things Megadrive and I said, then basically confirming our points

The early PS2 demos (Tekken Demo, Duck in sink, the bony dinosaur and skeletons, fur and particles) ALL have been VASTLY surpassed by games currently available. the fact that they might have been running on different hardware doesn't really matter, because compared to the games (in the shops, touchable and very real) they look like utter shit.

The early Xbox demos (the Robofight, the Thunder thing etc) and most of the GC ones were obviously pre-rendered. There are NO games out today that surpass those demos. Not one single game.

That doesnt mean anything really, it doesnt prove the Xbox and GC hardware are underperforming, it just means MS and Nintendo raised their expectations a bit to high prior to launch. Which is something Sony is accused of doing all the time, funny enough...

 

[Fox5]

the real Xbox did not live up to the MS (or pipedreams?) CGI demos showed in March 2000 for the Xbox conference.

and which demos are these?

As for Gamecube, the only demo from spaceworld 2000 that directly became a game and was as good as the demo, was Rogue Squadran 2.
everything else either never became a game, or wasnt as good as the demos.

or became a game and wasn't as good as its demo. Wether it became a game or not is irrelevant graphically speaking nintendo isn't delivering.

What game did "Mario 128" become? The Zelda title we saw never came into being. What happened to the Raven Blade and that Donkey Kong demo? What of Kameo, and the other graphically impressive demos?

Many of these titles you mention which did infact become games were hardly impressive. Certainly nothing that would make me think Nintendo would deliver on a timely basis games of high graphical quality if they had a system more powerful than the xbox2.

I'd say that that Sony PS2 games have surpassed most of the PS2 tech demos shown in 1999.

Really? I've never seen the vast majority of those tech demos running on a ps2 before. Especially not the rendering of the doctor's face from the FF movie.

what exactly where the rest of these tech demos?

mainly because the PS2 tech demos were all realtime, I believe.

I recall hearing quite the opposite.

with the possible exception of the FF8 dance scene.

I would also suggest that the rendering of the doctor's face and the duck demo may not have been either.

I recall reading here on Beyond3D that a workstation with lots of memory was employed to assist the early PS2 hardware in doing that demo.

Which of course wasn't a method of misrepresenting the PS2's hardware.

the lighting was controlled in realtime by the PS2 but a workstation stored the many frames of animation. actually thats a rumor not confirmed in any way.

until i see a disc with the tech demo on it i will remain suspicious

Mario 128 became Pikmin. Sure it's not the same, but supposendly pikmin was based on its concept.(and it was 100 Marios, wasn't it?)
The zelda title was impressive for its time, not so much now. However, looking at it, while it does lack in some areas that both the soul calibur 2 link and wind waker link have, it just looks so much unlike any gamecube game that I'd say it probably wasn't done on actual gamecube hardware, probably an SGI workstation or something and made well in advance.
Raven Blade I don't think was a tech demo, I think just a cancelled game...
And donkey kong was FMV, as was most of the rebirth demo.
Kameo wasn't very impressive from the gameplay videos I saw.

And wasn't the ps2 ducky demo controlled by a ps2 controller? It certainly wasn't prerendered then.....


BTW, nintendo's graphics hardware was downgraded before launch, maybe the original hardware would have had no problem with those demos?

 

[jvd]

Mario 128 became Pikmin

you seriously saying mario 128 demo was better than pikmin ? Man oh man . I can agree on the link demo but not on this due. The detail in pikimin with the amount of creatures and detail in the backrounds and forgrounds blew away the 128 demo.

 

[zidane1strife]

I expect many demos to be shown for PS3-XB2-N5 that the actual consoles never live up to.

I hope ps3 follows tradition and shows real-time stuff(hopefully all will do this), and stuff that’s later out-done… if they did their job right, they’ll be able to compete even against fake cg demos...

yet still, the next consoles will be a nice leap, probably 50~100x better performance than current consoles.

I expect a little higher… 400-600+ leap in perf…

I recall hearing quite the opposite.

And you’ll hear it again even if ps3’s demos are realtime.