So, what happens if Xbox2 hardware ends up inferior to NES5?

[Fox5]

ICP = Insane Clown Posse, unless there is another one I don't know about.
They do some really funny stuff.

 

[Vince]

ICP = Insane Clown Posse, unless there is another one I don't know about.

I was going to post earlier and say, "That better not be who I think it is" - but refrained. Consider yourself lucky Archie.

 

[Tagrineth]

OK, I'm 28 and I don't even know what ICP is...

I'm 27 and I can kinda tell you what it is.

It's one of those crazy death metal bands. You know, that wear all black and stuff.

LOL, not even close...

Insane Clown Posse is very lighthearted and meant as humour, and they dress as clowns. ^^;

Added: Though they do have some heavy, surprisingly meaningful stuff hidden in there.

But it definitely isn't for everyone.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I think Flipper was under construction from 1998 to 2000, but it may have been started as early as 1997, because that's when Nintendo and ArtX started working together on a GPU, after the Nintendo-CagEnt deal with the MX chipset fell through.

CagEnt is the former 3DO Systems, MX was a dramatically enhanced M2.
(the M2 was a stronger N64-like chipset that was going to be out in 96-97)
Nintendo proposed buying out CagEnt and modifying the MX chipset to work with a MIPs CPU. this would have been the N2000 that would have launched in Japan in 1999.

to put the chipsets in perspective:

M2 (2X PPC 602 + BDA GPU) was 2-3 times more powerful than N64
MX was several times more powerful than M2, comparable to Dreamcast.
ArtX Flipper is several times more powerful than MX and Dreamcast

 

[Wunderchu]

check out these interviews , I think they're relevant to link to here, as they're related to the discussion going on in this thread (they're about ATI/ArtX/Nintendo GameCube):



E3: ATI Interview
http://cube.ign.com/articles/095/095011p1.html

ATI Discusses GameCube Graphics
http://cube.ign.com/articles/099/099520p1.html

ATI Discusses GameCube Graphics (Part 2)
http://cube.ign.com/articles/099/099566p1.html









On a different note, but still related with discussion in this thread, here is a quotation from this source:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1220430,00.asp

Don't expect the graphics capabilities of future Nintendo and Microsoft products to be exactly the same, however, the ATI spokesman said. "Yes, we have different design teams working on them, with different requirements and different timetables," the spokesman said.

 

[Qroach]

hmm... different timetables...

 

[Fox5]

Ouch, a 1999 nintendo system with dreamcast graphics? That would have tested me, it'd be like genesis versus snes all over again! Hmm, about how powerful was it? For a 1999 release I'd expect it to be more on par with model 3 or the pc hardware of the time, so while maybe not maxing out as high as the dreamcast, it would have performed consistently better.(like psx versus saturn) Was the MX hardware ever used in anything? I believe the M2 hardware was used in some arcade games.
I found some stuff about a 64bit 3do console called the M2, but its games appear to be mostly those interactive movie types, with the actual 3d graphics looking playstation quality, if that. It does seem to have some neat effects though.
And this http://nfg.2y.net/games/polystars/ article about the M2(with pictures of games for it) doesn't seem very impressive.


Lol, http://www.poparttimes.com/parlor/n64.html also thought this had some funny stuff in it.(nintendo's commitment to online, sony's failed psx launch...)

 

[StefanS]

Insane Clown Posse is very lighthearted and meant as humour, and they dress as clowns. ^^;

Added: Though they do have some heavy, surprisingly meaningful stuff hidden in there.

But it definitely isn't for everyone.

Insane Clown Posse is fun, but meaningful? What's meaningful about singing "I'm sooo pissed" in Thai?

 

[Legion]

Re: So, what happens if Xbox2 hardware ends up inferior to N

I mean, microsoft has gone with basically the same suppliers, but what if they choose a different and inferior cpu than nintendo? And more importantly, what if the gpu developed for nintendo is superior to the one developed for microsoft? Will ATi switch the gpus around, or give the better one to both of them? I mean, if they're close microsoft would probably keep the one they got, but what if nintendo's was 4x better than anything else out there, and microsoft's was barely 2x better than what we have now?

probably the same thing that happened with the n64 and gamecube. Nintendo will show us a load of tech demos/screen shots of games that will never be released. Instead they'll make sequels ad nauseum and talk about the good old days while reporting to the press that a shrinking game market really means they are reaching the people they are trying to sell their games to.

 

[Bohdy]

I hear people predict the next generation and they basically describe an extension of this gen. I simply cannot affrod to think that way myself since it would bore me frightfully if there were not major upsets and changes next gen.

There certainly is the potential for an upset to come from any side in this power triangle in my opinion. Microsoft has a mind of metal and wheels (to quote treebeard ) and will stop at nothings, Sony has a great big wildcard in the PS3 and will make an effort since its throne is being challenged, and Nintendo certainly has something up its sleve and should absolutely not be discounted.

I am not sure if I am the only one who has noticed it, but this gen for Nintendo has almost been a stopgap measure. They have built foundations and made alliances this gen, and its pretty clear their core teams are busy with other things than games like Mario Kark which while good could certainly have been much better. There is the feeling of gathering reserves... Nintendo is planing something next gen.

Of course, it could be just like this gen, but I might lose interst in consoles if that happens *sigh*

 

[Legion]

Nintendo certainly has something up its sleve and should absolutely not be discounted.

How do you know they aren't bluffing with their mario poker face?

 

[Bohdy]

Well... I don't know. But I do hope.

The fact is, that if there is no big plan from them in the next gen, then they will be pushed firmly into the niche and will never be a power again...

 

[London Geezer]

why would they want to have the most powerful hardware, spending funds on something that has NOTHING to do with the potential success of the console?

i think eveyone has seen how Sony destroyed the competition TWICE and have been market leader for the last 10 years with the least powerful hardware. TWICE.

i really do not think anyone should really bother with the hardware, past a certain point of course. in the end they only need something to look decent compared to the competition and then focus on the software and on how to innovate the extremely YAWNY market of today...

 

[cthellis42]

I'm not sure what the jury has decided of the Saturn/PS1 wars, but I don't really think Sony had the least powerful hardware when it launched. (Even against N64 it's arguable. Certainly it's hard to tell, since they each had notable design differences and trade-offs.) Nor when the PS2 launched. Consoles were continually leapfrogging each other, of course. (We now get a strange situation where next gen likely won't be scattershot launches.)

I will be the first to admit, however, that hardware differences get glossed over by the general public, and many more elements affect platform success. Hardware CAN be an issue, but only with notable exclusions that the public really desires, or an IMMENSE technological gap people will notice immediately, which we haven't seen for a long time.

 

[London Geezer]

it's a common economic element called Substitutes and Complements.
Console nowadays all offer the same thing, graphical differences really do not matter since 90% of the people still think they're all the same, and some of them still think PS2 is the most powerful hardware...

until a console becomes a substitute of another (providing something DIFFERENT, not the same features but BIGGER and BETTER), the most successful, trendy, well-known company will win.

this is all in my opinion, based on how things work in the economics world the way i see it...

 

[cybamerc]

Legion:

> probably the same thing that happened with the n64 and gamecube.
> Nintendo will show us a load of tech demos/screen shots of games that
> will never be released.

Going back I think you'll find that more than a few of Nintendo's tech demos turned into actual games. Certainly more than M$ and about equal to Sony (although none of Sony's demos were really indicative of the final software IIRC).

 

[London Geezer]

Legion:

> probably the same thing that happened with the n64 and gamecube.
> Nintendo will show us a load of tech demos/screen shots of games that
> will never be released.

Going back I think you'll find that more than a few of Nintendo's tech demos turned into actual games. Certainly more than M$ and about equal to Sony (although none of Sony's demos were really indicative of the final software IIRC).

for one, the early demos Sony showed prior to PS2 launch were VERY VERY much worse than software actually available for it, even first generation. All the early demos were running on real PS2 hardware and it showed because Sony themselves still didn't really know how to use it, in fact those demos have been surpassed by orders of magnitude by software commercially available for the platform. Unlike MS and their pre-rendered Cyborg fight thing, or Nintendo's Zelda, Donkey Kong etc......

 

[Sonic]

Saturn was more powerful than the PSX despite the lack of dedicated 3d hardware. Watching VF3 on the Saturn was surely a beauty back in the day, it's a shame it was never released.

Nintendo has the ability to go all out next generation and come out a winner. But they need to have a lot more agressive marketing and business tactics. I see Nintendo as mainly a pacifist company who will let just about any company go in and take what was once their's. If they were to grow a pair of balls and fight for the market then a lot of people would probably be surprised by just how much of the market they take back.

 

[_phil_]

Xbox2 exclusive Matrix Game
Talk about realism ,but IMO the casting isn't just there.

http://www.tabletpctalk.com/pictures/comdex2003billg2.shtml

 

[Megadrive1988]

Ouch, a 1999 nintendo system with dreamcast graphics? That would have tested me, it'd be like genesis versus snes all over again! Hmm, about how powerful was it? For a 1999 release I'd expect it to be more on par with model 3 or the pc hardware of the time, so while maybe not maxing out as high as the dreamcast, it would have performed consistently better.(like psx versus saturn) Was the MX hardware ever used in anything? I believe the M2 hardware was used in some arcade games.
I found some stuff about a 64bit 3do console called the M2, but its games appear to be mostly those interactive movie types, with the actual 3d graphics looking playstation quality, if that. It does seem to have some neat effects though.
And this http://nfg.2y.net/games/polystars/ article about the M2(with pictures of games for it) doesn't seem very impressive.

Yes according to Next Generation online, the N2000 was ment to ship in Japan in late 1999, based on MIPS CPU and MX graphics.

MX is like M2's big brother.

M2 was used in arcades. it wasnt incredibly impressive, but it was nice. better than PS1 and N64 combined. or about 3x Nintendo64 at most.

The MX was not used in anything as far as I know. Next Generation said MX peaked at about 4 million triangles per second. that's somewhat less than Dreamcast (5-10M peak) but about 3-4 times better than M2 (over 1M peak) or around 6-8 times N64 (600K peak). So MX would have made a decent Nintendo console in 1999 (it was being modified to work with MIPs CPU instead of PowerPC) but no where near close to GC. The GC is like 50 to 100x stronger than N64 in pushing polygon graphics. the MX would have been at most 10x N64, probably a bit less.

the ArtX Flipper GPU was started around the time Nintendo was working with MX. ArtX designed their GPU to work with either MIPs or PowerPC from the start and of course it was ArtX that urged Nintendo to go with PowerPC, thus Nintendo-IBM partnership announced in 1999 for Dolphin.

The M2 console you mentioned is the M2 you have often heard about. it was going to be both an upgrade to the 32-Bit 3DO as well as a standalone console. Again, it was more powerful than N64 but less powerful than Dreamcast. M2 was closer to N64 than Dreamcast in power (Dreamcast is 10-20 times stronger than N64, the M2 was only 2 or 3 times stronger than N64)


The guys that made M2 and MX are now with Microsoft, probably contributing to the Xbox2 design--they stayed out of XBox1 because of Nvidia.

one last time, lets compare the rough estimate of each chipset's power:

N64: 600,000 polygons peak, 160,000 with everything
M2: 1.2~1.5M polygons peak, 300,000~500,000 with everything
MX: 4M polygons peak, probably 1 million with everything
DC: 10M polygons peak, around 3-4 million with everything
GC: 32M polygons peak, around 12-20 million with everything