So tell me, WHY is a HDD so important again?

[scooby_dooby]

To really discuss this we need to know the growth rate for broadband over the last 4 years, as well as the projected penetration over the next 3-4 years.

I'm not a live player myself, but pretty much everyone I know who has ever went on it, got hooked, they love it for some reason.

I expect that this is a general trend, once people get online they wonder how they ever did without it, and the only reason it hasn't been big so far is the simple lack of penetration. It will be a cultural phenomenon, all you need to do is look at the massive success of MMO games right now, they really are taking off. Online play is the next big thing for consoles.

Shifty, have you ever played Halo in co-op mode? That's one of the best gaming experiences ever, 2 player depending on your buddy to wqtch your back, it's great, far far better IMO than deathmatches etc. MS is pushing this co-op mode hard on Dev's so we can expect alot of genres to "make sense" on Live if you put co-op into the mix.

Of course, thats just my opinion.

 

[pc999]

And bethesda has confirmed they are maing extensive use of the HDD:

---------------------------------------------------------------

Bethesda, maker of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for Xbox 360, has previously boasted considerable use of the hard drive for its massive RPG. Many gamers are wondering if they can still play Oblivion if they purchase the hard drive-free Core System. We contacted Bethesda directly to find out.

"We've known since day one that there would be versions of the 360 without a hard drive, so Oblivion will still work on every 360," assures Todd Howard, executive producer at Bethesda. "That being said, Oblivion takes full advantage of the hard drive and uses it extensively, so we'd certainly recommend that everyone gets one."

This indicates that the hard drive can be tapped for more than just MP3 and photo storage. It seems developers are not afraid to utilize the hard drive for optimizing load times and streamlining their games much like the original Xbox.

Game Informer has also heard rumblings that Microsoft mandated all Xbox 360 games be playable without hard drive assistance (MMOs are excused from this requirement). It's up to the developer to choose how much hard drive optimization to include in their games from that point. --------------------------------------------------------------

Great now cant even use the games at the full extent, even paying the same than others.

 

[jvd]

For now . Untill core numbers go up high enough that the devs wont bother with even caching . Let alone the other things the hardrive can be used for that will now go unused

 

[Inane_Dork]

Err, no it wouldn't.

So, PS3 + HDD + built-in Wifi = $500? OK.

X360 + HDD + Wifi = $500

No Bluray (which will be in several-hundred dollar players next year - how much would MS charge for HD-DVD addon?). No full backwards compatibility. No gigabit switch. No digital video out. Etc. etc.

PS3 + HDD at $500 would be a bargain compared to the X360 pricing. Heck PS3 minus a HDD at that price would still look like very good value relative to X360 (very unfortunately). I don't think Sony will go that high with PS3 though.

You're refering to a setup that heavily favors the PS3. Who wants a gigabit switch? Who wants digital video out? Who wants Blu-Ray playback? Who wants WiFi?

Heck, if we're going to construct systems that favor companies, why don't you tell me how much I'll have to pay to make a PS3 have an HDD, component out and Media Center extension? Infinity dollars!


I find it hilarious that MS gets flamed for setting the bar "too high" in relation to things like HD, but when they acknowledge most don't need it yet, they're flamed again. Brilliant! That's classic danged-if-you-do-danged-if-you-don't treatment of MS right there.

Untill core numbers go up high enough that the devs wont bother with even caching .

That's a really premature analysis to make.

Let alone the other things the hardrive can be used for that will now go unused

Oh yes. My Xbox hard drive is FULL of things that my X360 HDD can't do like... well, actually, nothing.

 

[Titanio]

You're refering to a setup that heavily favors the PS3. Who wants a gigabit switch? Who wants digital video out? Who wants Blu-Ray playback? Who wants WiFi?

Me?

A lot of these things aren't exactly extreme. I mean Revolution's going to have wifi too (their $130 handheld has it to, so I mean...). Bluray is very handy given that equivalent players may be several hundred dollars, and I've a HDTV here dying for content. Digital Video out is certainly something I want for my setup. I think a lot of people prior to the announcement of the consoles thought that would be standard.

These aren't trivalities IMO, I think it's funny how much some people want to try and downplay them, when they'd be very happy if they were on their system of choice.

Heck, if we're going to construct systems that favor companies, why don't you tell me how much I'll have to pay to make a PS3 have an HDD

Not much more than X360 I'd say, and probably for more capacity judging by Kutaragi's comments.

component out

You don't think component cables will be available for PS3?

and Media Center extension? Infinity dollars!

How much will I pay for PSP extension and functionality and Sony's media functionality on PS3? Infinity dollars! Ditto for many other hardware features on PS3 (since it was hardware we were really talking about), that likely won't ever show up on X360.

The comparisons I made were very fair.

 

[Inane_Dork]

Me?

Well, there's one. And one is statistically irrelevant in this case.

A lot of these things aren't exactly extreme. I mean Revolution's going to have wifi too (their $130 handheld has it to, so I mean...). Bluray is very handy given that equivalent players may be several hundred dollars, and I've a HDTV here dying for content. Digital Video out is certainly something I want for my setup. I think a lot of people prior to the announcement of the consoles thought that would be standard.

I did not say they are extreme; I asked how many truly want them. And you are simply not a good model for the entire market (neither am I or any one person).

These aren't trivalities IMO, I think it's funny how much some people want to try and downplay them, when they'd be very happy if they were on their system of choice.

And I didn't say they're trivialities. My, my. You really are reaching here.

I'm not downplaying them either. I'm simply asking how many people actually want them. Would I be happier if the X360 had WiFi out of the box? Well, of course. I might even use it. But that does not make it very valuable to me.

Not much more than X360 I'd say, and probably for more capacity judging by Kutaragi's comments.

You don't think component cables will be available for PS3?

How much will I pay for PSP extension and functionality and Sony's media functionality on PS3? Infinity dollars!

Wow. You couldn't even take a whole sentence in without chopping it up and spinning it.

That is precisely my point. You're coming up with a scenario that favors the PS3. I can just as easily come up with a scenario that favors the X360. There's no reason either of these scenarios should be given any weight unless we have good reason to believe they represent many people.

The comparisons I made were very fair.

The comparisons you made were very fair for yourself, but no more than that.

 

[Titanio]

Well, there's one. And one is statistically irrelevant in this case.

What, you expected a survey? I can only speak for myself, as anyone else here can.

That is precisely my point. You're coming up with a scenario that favors the PS3. I can just as easily come up with a scenario that favors the X360.

No actually, it's more difficult. You start hitting things like software and intangibles a lot sooner trying to construct a more favourable scenario for X360 than you do on PS3. There are just more hardware features on PS3 to compare against, it's as simple as that, and to try and match that on X360 would be potentially very expensive if even possible. Even matching just the Wifi puts you in $400 territory. If MS considered it a useless feature I doubt they'd make it available as a peripheral (which at $99 they seem to value very highly!). And they're talking about HD-DVD drives too, for example. And digital-out potentially. Given that there are systems coming out with more on the hardware side as standard, it's fair to consider how much it would cost to have your X360 incorporate that same functionality, if it's possible at all. And sorry, but MS doesn't define what's useful and what's not here - as you say, that's up to the individual customer, and I'm sure many will be making such mental comparisons. I think it's better to be safe than sorry and include as much as possible to accomodate as many different usage patterns as possible, especially if the price is right, relatively speaking.

It really is just that simple. How far does Sony have to go now in terms of pricing before PS3 looks to be comparatively bad value? The answer is they'd have to go very far, and I don't think they will.

 

[jvd]

Wow. You couldn't even take a whole sentence in without chopping it up and spinning it.

That is precisely my point. You're coming up with a scenario that favors the PS3. I can just as easily come up with a scenario that favors the X360. There's no reason either of these scenarios should be given any weight unless we have good reason to believe they represent many people.



Almost any scenario now favors the ps3 .

If the ps3 comes out base model at 400$ then that is a bluray player plus game system + wifi for 100$ less than the premium model + wifi the xbox 360 offers.

If ps3 comes out at the base model at 500$ with bluray player + wifi then its exactly even with the premium xbox 360 with wifi .



I don't see a scenario that is plausible that doesn't involve ms having the advantage .

The most likely one i see is this


Ms drops the price next holiday to 250$ 350$ . Sony comes out at 400$ standard with built in wifi .

Ms drops wifi price down to 50$ and there u go hdd vs bluray


However the last system that had a price drop in the usa after only one year was the dreamcast and that didn't fair so well

 

[Titanio]

Ms drops wifi price down to 50$ and there u go hdd vs bluray

Would you equate these as equals, from a simple value proposition perspective?

I think when consumers see Bluray players perhaps north of $500 on the shelves, or more even, it'll represent better value to have than a 20GB HDD would (when equivalent 60-80GB HDDs are typically in the range MS is selling the 20GB one for). Particularly when it's a non-standard HDD (if it were standard, that'd add more intanglible value imo, beyond the megabytes per dollar).

 

[Inane_Dork]

No actually, it's more difficult. You start hitting things like software and intangibles a lot sooner trying to construct a more favourable scenario for X360 than you do on PS3. There are just more hardware features on PS3 to compare against, it's as simple as that, and to try and match that on X360 would be potentially very expensive if even possible. Even matching just the Wifi puts you in $400 territory. If MS considered it a useless feature I doubt they'd make it available as a peripheral (which at $99 they seem to value very highly!). And they're talking about HD-DVD drives too, for example. And digital-out potentially.

I agree there are more cases for the PS3, but that does not make them easier to generate. Anyway, this is totally beside the point.

Given that there are systems coming out with more on the hardware side as standard, it's fair to consider how much it would cost to have your X360 incorporate that same functionality, if it's possible at all. And sorry, but MS doesn't define what's useful and what's not here - as you say, that's up to the individual customer, and I'm sure many will be making such mental comparisons. I think it's better to be safe than sorry and include as much as possible to accomodate as many different usage patterns as possible, especially if the price is right, relatively speaking.

You mean like, the original Xbox? The problem comes from the "if the price is right" part. I agree it's right, but there's not exactly one correct answer to it.

As an aside, I wager it smarter to make all the accessories cheaper and only offer the base model.

Almost any scenario now favors the ps3 .

Without pricing info this is another premature conclusion of yours. We don't know how much Sony will eat and how much they'll pass on to their customers.

 

[scooby_dooby]

There's some scenario's where MS still does ok,

They drop the base model to $250 next x-mas, sony launches the PS3 with just one SKU, at a $400-500 price point.

Inane Dork makes a great point, although the PS3 is a great value, blu-ray, gigabit, wifi etc etc, MANY people don't care! Actually MOST people, by a far majority, don't really give 2 craps about any of these things. So the PS3 is still gonna look extremely expensive to someone just interested in playing GAMES. Sure it's a good deal, but if the features aren't appealing to the consumer, it doesn't matter how great of a deal it is.

The PS3 launch contains MANY of the same games available on the x360, for $150 less. Also, the games look identical.

The $250 xbox 360 would look like quite the smokin deal considering it will have most of the titles the ps3 launch system has, as well as a laundry list of really good exclusives, I mean we're talkin Halo 3, Gears of War, Kameo, POerfect Dark Zero, Oblivion, Lost Odyssey, every single one of these is exclusive and should be on the market before next x-mas.

It's not clear cut yet, sure they lost their biggest advantage, the HDD, but they still have the early launch, comporable system power, a lower price point, and a bigger library of titles(at least into 2007) so I'm sure it will do fine.

 

[jvd]

Without pricing info this is another premature conclusion of yours. We don't know how much Sony will eat and how much they'll pass on to their customers.

I listed the 3 most likely prices . Or do you bleieve sony is going to launch at 600$ or above ?

 

[scooby_dooby]

I listed the 3 most likely prices . Or do you bleieve sony is going to launch at 600$ or above ?

Huge problem with your analysis(i'm gonna assume a $250 core model for xmas 2006, i think that's reasonable):

If the ps3 comes out base model at 400$ then that is a bluray player plus game system + wifi for 100$ less than the premium model + wifi the xbox 360 offers.

If PS3 comes in at $400 that's $150 more than the xbox360 which playes the same games with the same graphics. Blu-Ray is a factor, but for what percentage of gamers? Wi-fi is a non issue, nobody will be buying a $100 wi-fi card, so it's a bullet point for PS3, and again, what percentage of gamers care? They would trade $150 for wifi and a BR drive? Most won't want that trade, IMO.

If ps3 comes out at the base model at 500$ with bluray player + wifi then its exactly even with the premium xbox 360 with wifi .

If it launches at $500 it's now double the price of the core x360 with the same GAME playing capabilities. Wifi can't be used to always inflate the price of x360, it's a compeltely overpriced peripheral and simply will not be pirchased. Again it's a bullet point for PS3, but does wifi and BR outweigh $250?? 4-5 games?

 

[jvd]

If PS3 comes in at $400 that's $150 more than the xbox360 which playes the same games with the same graphics. Blu-Ray is a factor, but for what percentage of gamers? Wi-fi is a non issue, nobody will be buying a $100 wi-fi card, so it's a bullet point for PS3, and again, what percentage of gamers care? They would trade $150 for wifi and a BR drive? Most won't want that trade, IMO.

wifi and br drives are big bonuses .
150$ a next gen movie player and wifi . Thats with us not knowing if the base ps3 model comes with a wireless controller , memory (16mb memory stick perhaps ) and composite cables .

all of which factoring can lead the price higher .

No i took hdd bundle because according to ms this is the xbox 360 . The core version is just a cut back . To hae the true system u have to spen the 400$

 

[jvd]

If it launches at $500 it's now double the price of the core x360 with the same GAME playing capabilities. Wifi can't be used to always inflate the price of x360, it's a compeltely overpriced peripheral and simply will not be pirchased. Again it's a bullet point for PS3, but does wifi and BR outweigh $250?? 4-5 games?

Where do you get same game playing capabilities ?

You have two tiers in xbox 360 already. Long loading times and short loading times which are not the same game playing capabilites . The ps3 can very well have faster load times than the xbox 360 core and thus no longer the same capabilities . It can also come equiped as a bundle with other add ins and of course u can use cheaper memory for saves . As you can alerady get a 64 mb sd card for 5$ if u shop around vs 40$ for 64mb from ms .

 

[scooby_dooby]

and x360 core could also end up having faster load times than ps3, we don't even know the read speed of the dvd/blu-ray drive at this point in time, so it's impossible to say.

at this point we can only assume the gfx wil be roughly equal, if PS3 does prove to have better gfx that's an advantage they will have.

Or vice versa, If 360 ends up having better GFX, then PS3 is in some hot water I would say, the more expensive console with weaker gfx and a smaller game library would be a major problem.

If PS3 does support any flash media for in-game saves, which I highly highly doubt, then that will be a fairly big benefit for PS3.

We're talking scenarios though, that was mine, in my scenario they have the same gfx capabilities as far as the gamer can tell, the core is launched at $250 and the PS3 at 400-500. In this scenario MS does pretty darn good I would think.

 

[Titanio]

Inane Dork makes a great point, although the PS3 is a great value, blu-ray, gigabit, wifi etc etc, MANY people don't care! Actually MOST people, by a far majority, don't really give 2 craps about any of these things. So the PS3 is still gonna look extremely expensive to someone just interested in playing GAMES.

I think since the Playstation launch, most of the market has (unfortunately?) cared about more than "just" games. To the point where it can sway decisions.

I think the things PS3 has will help give it a very cutting edge image. A lot of people won't even be able to take full advantage of it, but even to them it'll seem like something that'll last longer, because it's something they can grow into. That'll all help with it's image, with the value proposition, and potentially could make other alternatives look "cheap" if marketed correctly (and this has happened before, we've already seen competitors undercutting Playstations in the past, and just not getting the market reaction they wanted).

And also, these systems won't be playing the same games. Multiplatform-ism is more widespread, but you'll still have exclusives. And the "game playing capability" thing is very arguable, and comes more down to a matter of perception. That's an issue of hardware power though, which I don't think this thread is about.