So tell me, WHY is a HDD so important again?
- Thread starter Hardknock
- Start date
Which means the HDD absence was never an issue on the PS3 version. Which begs the question why no PS3 version? My guess is Bethseda are primarily concerned with the PC version and XB360's sue of DirectX + SMT made the port fairly simple, whereas PS3 would need a substantial from-grass-roots-up rewrite of the code. Maybe?Hardknock said:
Regards USB storage I don't think that can be true. I've never heard it suggested until now and only a severly uneducated individual would blow $40 on a 64mb memory card that MS sells when you can get 256mb USB for less. If XB360 supports keydrives why sell a memory card? Surely every geek that's gonna own XB360 already has three USB drives lying around!
MechanizedDeath
Regular
I caught some serious stick in that Oblivion thread for saying that there's nothing it's doing that requires a HDD. I'm not gloating, but I was right. I was right about that, and I was right about there being no HD-DVD. And it just makes a lot more sense now than it did then. A memory card is all that's needed. And games will be coded to the minimum, which I assume is 64MB. I feel a little vindicated now. :? PEACE.
Benefits of a HDD standard in all SKUs? There are downsides to a fragmented base, although some "upsides" (i.e. common reasons have easy enough solutions/reasons). Overall I really dislike the move, even if I understand it.
1. Mass storage for new game play types/features and MMOs.
Downside: Games will either need to limit these features OR require a HDD. The latter means a fragmented user base and fewer sales for games requiring extra features.
Upside: The HDD is available at launch (unlike previous HDD failures) and is expected to be the most popular SKU. In a market perspective, MS is doing nothing different than Sony, and with Sony being the market leader trying to introduce a new feature that has not spawned new *console selling* features is a big financial investment. For a HDD to be treated as a "default feature" MS really needed Sony to include the HDD as standard as well. ONLY then would publishers view a HDD as a standard feature to exploit. Chicken-and-Egg, and this gen proved the HDD to be under used for new gameplay features
2. Game content caching.
Downside: Loadtimes and fewer seemless worlds.
Upside: Some talk already of HDD detection and using content streaming from the HDD in systems with the HDD. This means some extra work (i.e. tailoring for 2 SKUs)
3. Leverage demos, game trailer videos, interviews, previews, and other media to push on
Downside: Knowing every gamer has a HDD to store you 2GB demo to your new big game is a good reason to spend the time to market it this way. Low cost compared to advertising. This is ESPECIALLY important for GOOD games that do not have the budget for exposure. How many GOOD games sell poorly because people do not know about them? Demos and such--on your console direct from MS
-- would be like a total hype machine for new games.
Upside: I guess they cans till do this for those with an internet connection + HDD, but it wont be quite the exposure (i.e. I forsee the HDD being mainly a feature for more serious gamers whereas demos/trailers on your TV would be a CHEAP way to reach many casuals who would NEVER buy EGM or go to IGN). Really, nothing positive about this. Even demo DVDs do not reduce the pain of this. MS, IMO, lost an important ADVERTISING oppurtunity. They still have it, but not to the same degree--every model sold. They failed at offering this on the Xbox, and now they have reduced the audiance size. Shame.
4. Microtransactions, purchasable expansion packs, purchasable game content and maps, etc
Downside: A key next gen features, risky but EXCITING features, get the back seat. Instead of every console being in position to have a LOT of additional content, now consumers must pay to get the space and then pay for the content.
Upside: Hmmm Most online gamers will have a HDD anyhow Really nothing good on this front.
5. TiVo
Downside: With the WMC PC out it is no surprise MS does not want to compete with their WMC PC darling, so no TiVo was NOT a surpise. No HDD means no TiVo in base SKUs, unless
Upside: Announcement of streaming with Windows XP means MS is trying to bypass the HDD and instead leverage the PC for WMC features/functions.
6. Technology difference
Downside: PS3 and Xbox 360 are becoming very similiar in featureset and functions. 512MB memory, modern fast GPUs, PPC CPUs, optical media, now HDD extra. Ho hum, boring.
Upside: With cross platforming so popular/necessary we already have seen that the HDD was neglected. With MS projected for ~35% of the market (~50M consoles) there is STILL a fragmented user base. Until the market leader (Sony) decides to include this feature as standard, MS becomes the market leader (not happening this gen) and makes the HDD standard, or a killer game genre requires a HDD (still waiting!!) and everyone gets a HDD it will always be a fragmented user base from a *publisher* POV. The HDD was underutilized on the Xbox.
7. Free content/levels
Downside: Getting free maps extends the life of your games... will devs/publishers be even less inclined (which is hard to imagine based on how few do this) to spend time on features that only 70% of users benefit from instead of 100%?
Upside: More of a potential loss since most are not doing this... but this should have changed. The only positive I can see is most online gamers are more serious about gaming and therefore will tend to have HDD. Really no upside here at all. Gamers are losing out on this.
8. Backwards compatibility
Downside: Only available on the HDD sku
Upside: Gamers buy a 360 want to play 360 games in general. No real upside, granted, but really a minor issue imo.
While I STRONGLY dislike this move, overall MS only really losing out in
1. Content Caching => Could result in longer load times (sucks, but 90M PS2 and 100M+ PS owners did not complain much)
2. Unified 360 Mass Storage featureset => Could hurt some genres in sales and discourage the creation of certain games that require the HDD, puts the 360 and PS3 in the same boat
3. Smaller audiance to leverage alternative revenue channels, namely microtransactions, downloadable expansion packs, and offering more 360 game exposure (demos, previews, etc) => Instead MS is trying to make a KILLING on everything else. i.e. Periphrials are a KNOWN quantity, so the alt sales method was risky
Basically we are not losing out on anything POTENTIAL. That killer app/feature, those "perks" that help gamers get excited and improve sales.
So I am very dissappointed, but I can understand the economics. I get the STRONG feeling the 512MB of memory was the HDD's death in the base SKU.
There is a reason Sony is not making the HDD standard. MS has $4B reasons. While the marketing benefits and features for devs (large storage area standard) and gamers (less load times) are great--I would like to see Live GOLD require the HDD--the fact a HDD could have meant less RAM, well, then they made the right choice.
Come now, you were complaining not too long ago about *choice* and how you did not like being 'forced' to pay for stuff like a HDD even if you would get one on your own. Surely you remember this. I do not understand how you can now say that a standard HDD is better than no standard HDD if previously your argued that including a HDD standard and making people pay for it is bad.
I thought choice--bigger HDD, no HDD--was more important than being stuck with a base HDD and being forced to upgrade (for whatever reason... 20GB is big enough for everything MS is planning because they are not planning on TiVo like features).
1. Mass storage for new game play types/features and MMOs.
Downside: Games will either need to limit these features OR require a HDD. The latter means a fragmented user base and fewer sales for games requiring extra features.
Upside: The HDD is available at launch (unlike previous HDD failures) and is expected to be the most popular SKU. In a market perspective, MS is doing nothing different than Sony, and with Sony being the market leader trying to introduce a new feature that has not spawned new *console selling* features is a big financial investment. For a HDD to be treated as a "default feature" MS really needed Sony to include the HDD as standard as well. ONLY then would publishers view a HDD as a standard feature to exploit. Chicken-and-Egg, and this gen proved the HDD to be under used for new gameplay features
2. Game content caching.
Downside: Loadtimes and fewer seemless worlds.
Upside: Some talk already of HDD detection and using content streaming from the HDD in systems with the HDD. This means some extra work (i.e. tailoring for 2 SKUs)
3. Leverage demos, game trailer videos, interviews, previews, and other media to push on
Downside: Knowing every gamer has a HDD to store you 2GB demo to your new big game is a good reason to spend the time to market it this way. Low cost compared to advertising. This is ESPECIALLY important for GOOD games that do not have the budget for exposure. How many GOOD games sell poorly because people do not know about them? Demos and such--on your console direct from MS
-- would be like a total hype machine for new games.Upside: I guess they cans till do this for those with an internet connection + HDD, but it wont be quite the exposure (i.e. I forsee the HDD being mainly a feature for more serious gamers whereas demos/trailers on your TV would be a CHEAP way to reach many casuals who would NEVER buy EGM or go to IGN). Really, nothing positive about this. Even demo DVDs do not reduce the pain of this. MS, IMO, lost an important ADVERTISING oppurtunity. They still have it, but not to the same degree--every model sold. They failed at offering this on the Xbox, and now they have reduced the audiance size. Shame.
4. Microtransactions, purchasable expansion packs, purchasable game content and maps, etc
Downside: A key next gen features, risky but EXCITING features, get the back seat. Instead of every console being in position to have a LOT of additional content, now consumers must pay to get the space and then pay for the content.
Upside: Hmmm Most online gamers will have a HDD anyhow
Really nothing good on this front.5. TiVo
Downside: With the WMC PC out it is no surprise MS does not want to compete with their WMC PC darling, so no TiVo was NOT a surpise. No HDD means no TiVo in base SKUs, unless
Upside: Announcement of streaming with Windows XP means MS is trying to bypass the HDD and instead leverage the PC for WMC features/functions.
6. Technology difference
Downside: PS3 and Xbox 360 are becoming very similiar in featureset and functions. 512MB memory, modern fast GPUs, PPC CPUs, optical media, now HDD extra. Ho hum, boring.
Upside: With cross platforming so popular/necessary we already have seen that the HDD was neglected. With MS projected for ~35% of the market (~50M consoles) there is STILL a fragmented user base. Until the market leader (Sony) decides to include this feature as standard, MS becomes the market leader (not happening this gen) and makes the HDD standard, or a killer game genre requires a HDD (still waiting!!) and everyone gets a HDD it will always be a fragmented user base from a *publisher* POV. The HDD was underutilized on the Xbox.
7. Free content/levels
Downside: Getting free maps extends the life of your games... will devs/publishers be even less inclined (which is hard to imagine based on how few do this) to spend time on features that only 70% of users benefit from instead of 100%?
Upside: More of a potential loss since most are not doing this... but this should have changed. The only positive I can see is most online gamers are more serious about gaming and therefore will tend to have HDD. Really no upside here at all. Gamers are losing out on this.
8. Backwards compatibility
Downside: Only available on the HDD sku
Upside: Gamers buy a 360 want to play 360 games in general. No real upside, granted, but really a minor issue imo.
While I STRONGLY dislike this move, overall MS only really losing out in
1. Content Caching => Could result in longer load times (sucks, but 90M PS2 and 100M+ PS owners did not complain much)
2. Unified 360 Mass Storage featureset => Could hurt some genres in sales and discourage the creation of certain games that require the HDD, puts the 360 and PS3 in the same boat
3. Smaller audiance to leverage alternative revenue channels, namely microtransactions, downloadable expansion packs, and offering more 360 game exposure (demos, previews, etc) => Instead MS is trying to make a KILLING on everything else. i.e. Periphrials are a KNOWN quantity, so the alt sales method was risky
Basically we are not losing out on anything POTENTIAL. That killer app/feature, those "perks" that help gamers get excited and improve sales.
So I am very dissappointed, but I can understand the economics. I get the STRONG feeling the 512MB of memory was the HDD's death in the base SKU.
There is a reason Sony is not making the HDD standard. MS has $4B reasons. While the marketing benefits and features for devs (large storage area standard) and gamers (less load times) are great--I would like to see Live GOLD require the HDD--the fact a HDD could have meant less RAM, well, then they made the right choice.
Titanio said:
Come now, you were complaining not too long ago about *choice* and how you did not like being 'forced' to pay for stuff like a HDD even if you would get one on your own. Surely you remember this. I do not understand how you can now say that a standard HDD is better than no standard HDD if previously your argued that including a HDD standard and making people pay for it is bad.
I thought choice--bigger HDD, no HDD--was more important than being stuck with a base HDD and being forced to upgrade (for whatever reason... 20GB is big enough for everything MS is planning because they are not planning on TiVo like features).
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Shifty Geezer said:
In addition to that, how about "Why bother releasing it on another system at a much later date?" Will there still be interest?
I suppose if you take RE4 as an example, the reasoning behind the PS2 port is pretty much related to the number of PS2s out there...
*shrug*
Yeah, maybe. Though six months isn't too much to wait. There's been plenty of late ports (BGDA on XB and GC for one from the top of my head) that have done okay. I wouldn't mind giving Oblivion a look, but I doubt my PCs up to it and I won't be getting an XB360. Course, I won't be a getting a PS3 for a good year after it's launched either An absence of RPGs on the platform would give Oblivion free run on that genre though.
I guess it was really a costs vs. gains consideration, and the rewards (a hundred thousand sales if they're lucky from 2-3 million PS3s) didn't justify the investment.
An absence of RPGs on the platform would give Oblivion free run on that genre though.I guess it was really a costs vs. gains consideration, and the rewards (a hundred thousand sales if they're lucky from 2-3 million PS3s) didn't justify the investment.
scooby_dooby
Legend
Many of the PS3 launch titles will have this problem don't you think?
There's a boatload of next gen titles that will be released on x360 first, I think that's an issue overall for Sony.
For a game like oblivion I think there definately would be an interest, it's one of those games that many people want to play and would welcome it on their console, just like GTA: SA despite being 6 months delayed still became the highest selling title in NA when it debuted on the xbox.
as an aside - didn't bethesday say in a recent interview they don't even have a PS3 dev kit?
There's a boatload of next gen titles that will be released on x360 first, I think that's an issue overall for Sony.
For a game like oblivion I think there definately would be an interest, it's one of those games that many people want to play and would welcome it on their console, just like GTA: SA despite being 6 months delayed still became the highest selling title in NA when it debuted on the xbox.
as an aside - didn't bethesday say in a recent interview they don't even have a PS3 dev kit?
Acert93 said:
No, I mean making the HDD fully standard is better. I said it should be optional if it's optional for games - those comments were made in the Allard thread wherein it was suggested it would not be something devs could rely on, and in that circumstance, yes it should be optional because it no longer matters.
A HDD included as standard in every box at €299 would have been ideal. I could have lived with that, if it was going to be standard forever. More even, since it wouldn't be "useless" as far as games go. My problem was forcing people to buy it if it wasn't going to be needed. As it is now, it's not required by games, and yes it is optional. The only problem is, €299 is for the one without the HDD now, as opposed to €299 with the HDD as thought before, and it's €99 for 20GB, €40 for 64MB :/
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Sorry but MS lost alot of respect with this move. (Not that they were held in high regards before but still) I think this announcement should of been out before they started taking preorders on the system. So now the $299 I put down assuming it was for a system with a HD is not? I understand the reasons they did this but the way they did it is what Im pretty upset about. The marketing tactics that are proclaimed against Sony now show MS to be in the same light. At least Sony put out there the possible high cost and no sense of a HD as standard on the PS3. Proclaiming a $299 price point (showing pictures with the Xbox 360 with HD everywhere) only to pull the HD out of the equation after the preorders are in effect. I think thats a little underhanded but then again not unexpected.
No questions about the games being $60 this gen now lol
Guess I need to step back because right now Im pretty ticked.
No questions about the games being $60 this gen now lol
Guess I need to step back because right now Im pretty ticked.
some of the xbox owners consistently repeated that it was the next best thing after sliced bread. now they are in the same case as the apple evangelists that praised the superiority of powerpc over x86 for years.
but how really did HDD help MS to differenciate the xbox from the others console ?
the ability to include your soundtrack ? a gimmick..
caching of data ? expensive optimisation..
savegames ? in the typical PC game the biggest part of the HDD space used consists only of static data.
few space is eaten by the savegames.
with some effort from the developper (optimization of storage of data on DVD, decrease of the savegames sizes), the HDD isn't needed..
only a few applications really needs HDD, te only one i can think of is some MMORPG where you regularly download additionnal heavy content from Internet.
the HDD was never realy needed in a console in the first place, as shown on PS2, GC or even xbox where few games depend on it.
but how really did HDD help MS to differenciate the xbox from the others console ?
the ability to include your soundtrack ? a gimmick..
caching of data ? expensive optimisation..
savegames ? in the typical PC game the biggest part of the HDD space used consists only of static data.
few space is eaten by the savegames.
with some effort from the developper (optimization of storage of data on DVD, decrease of the savegames sizes), the HDD isn't needed..
only a few applications really needs HDD, te only one i can think of is some MMORPG where you regularly download additionnal heavy content from Internet.
the HDD was never realy needed in a console in the first place, as shown on PS2, GC or even xbox where few games depend on it.
Mefisutoferesu
Regular
Just thought I'd make a comment... from what I've seen the memory cards for the Xbox 360 are essentially USB thumb drives. Now, while I doubt MS will allow you to use non-MS memory cards to save... I imagine the hacker community could easily whip together something to allow you to save to any usb device you have -- essentially forcing the Xbox360 to detect it as a really big USB thumb drive or something. I was talking about this a few days ago as well, so there's some plausiblility to what hardknock was saying earlier... 'course it doesn't equate to an HDD, but it's something nice.
msia2k75 said:
This isn't ubersite!!!!111 ARGHHHH!!!!!!
-2 DIE!!!!
jk
But yeah...HDD is being downplayed. And to everyone thinking about load times...check out the Rogue Galaxy thread in the Console Games ~Forum~....there trying to DELETE load times..as some would say..in the Computer/Software field...delete....yeah... ~_~,
I dont know I people say that they dont need a HDD, unless they prefer the money sucking vampires that memory cards are a HDD will always be better, but then MS do this and force you to buy a lot of expensive things that you would never buy (for a lot of people, if they had the change, e.g.that is way most people dont buy wireless controls) and the thing that would always be better will sufur a lot from underuse.
Even Live will sufer because the headset is not standart too (and new interfaces even more), I remember to read a lot of people (some of this forum) saing that they left of playing online on PC because comunication is naw a big part of experince, those will have a lot less comunication this time.
What MS is doing doing is making you pay 300 but soon you will need to spend a lot of money (100++++++), or 400 and get very few value of those, and forcing peope buying what they dont need. Being the HDD always the best option this is as dunb as dirty.
They lost their bigest (and almost only) weapon against SONY and NITENDO, and pissed of a lot of buyers, they just dont learn, they could do a lot of great packs...
As overall I think that even if there is only the 400 (like) version if they really wnat proffit fast (from games at the beggining) they should have a lower price, that would be to much IMO the 300 with HDD and headset would gave them a much bigger market , games sold during the life of XB and at the end more proffit.
Even Live will sufer because the headset is not standart too (and new interfaces even more), I remember to read a lot of people (some of this forum) saing that they left of playing online on PC because comunication is naw a big part of experince, those will have a lot less comunication this time.
What MS is doing doing is making you pay 300 but soon you will need to spend a lot of money (100++++++), or 400 and get very few value of those, and forcing peope buying what they dont need. Being the HDD always the best option this is as dunb as dirty.
They lost their bigest (and almost only) weapon against SONY and NITENDO, and pissed of a lot of buyers, they just dont learn, they could do a lot of great packs...
As overall I think that even if there is only the 400 (like) version if they really wnat proffit fast (from games at the beggining) they should have a lower price, that would be to much IMO the 300 with HDD and headset would gave them a much bigger market , games sold during the life of XB and at the end more proffit.
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scooby_dooby
Legend
The other issue that came to mind is the ability od game makers to release online patches.
For example, with Halo2 I guess there's alot of cheating so they forfe people to install updates and fix the mods. Now they won't be able to do this since some people will be running off of 64MB memory cards.
Are you going to have someone purchase a title, and bring it home, only to be told they can't play online unless they go back to the store and buy a $100 HDD to install the uypdates?
Or do you allow the players without patches to play with the outdated software? That would mean everyone who does not have a HDD have all their online games ruined by cheaters eventually as the game makers have no way of fighting back.
Now imagine if 50% of the userbase has no HDD, live is gonna be basically crap for the entire 50% of those people due to the rampant cheating.
For example, with Halo2 I guess there's alot of cheating so they forfe people to install updates and fix the mods. Now they won't be able to do this since some people will be running off of 64MB memory cards.
Are you going to have someone purchase a title, and bring it home, only to be told they can't play online unless they go back to the store and buy a $100 HDD to install the uypdates?
Or do you allow the players without patches to play with the outdated software? That would mean everyone who does not have a HDD have all their online games ruined by cheaters eventually as the game makers have no way of fighting back.
Now imagine if 50% of the userbase has no HDD, live is gonna be basically crap for the entire 50% of those people due to the rampant cheating.
scooby_dooby said:
They could want you to get an HDD because of the downloadable content for Oblivion. I doubt they would fit on a memcard. Just guessing though. If the game can use the HDD for faster loading times even when it's not standard, I think it's great and will definetly get the HDD. I'm more interested in the possibility to save to an USB device, because I have an 320GB external HDD and I don't really need the other accesories in the premium package.
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