Sega Saturn vs N64 hardware wise

What is general advantage of quads over triangles?
Aside less texture distortion when there is no perspective correction.
Smallee footprint of quad geometry on memory vs triangles?
 
I've played a lot of Wave Race 64. I think I like it more than Mario Kart 64 because the racing has more strategy and learning curve, with the wave interaction and overall style. It has a solid, seemingly forgotten Gamecube sequel too.
 
Last edited:
I've played a lot of Wave Race 64. I think I like it more than Mario Kart 64 because the racing has more strategy and learning curve, with the wave interaction and overall style. It has a solid, seemingly forgotten Gamecube sequel too.
Waverace has the same presentation elements that Wii Sports has, also. The announcer sounds the same, and the pre-race flyovers remind me of golf.
 
It is unfortunate that we will never know for sure if the Sega Saturn had the prowess to compete properly if, lets say, was a market leader that developers took fully advantage of.
Or at least if it could pull out more super interesting results than what we know now overall and to what extend.
But it is interesting to get an idea of the limitations and capabilities of each hardware by finding identical franchises and similar games between PS1, the N64 and the Sega Saturn.

Comparing the PS1 and the N64 games, one thing that the N64 had serious issues with are geometry and textures:

We can see something similar with Wipeout.

Wipeout shows the peculiarity of the Sega Saturn. It probably pushes more geometry, and textures than the N64, but the framerate, the strange color palette and transparency effects puts it in a position where you cant say it's better. Wipeout of course was probably not designed around the multiple processors and was running on just one. Which we can say maybe its partly the developer's fault, but then again this game was designed already using straigjt forward means. Taking that and braking it to VDP1, VDP2 and syncing properly the CPU's would have required disassembling and reassembling the game, not to mention remaking it from the ground up with the Saturn's limitations and peculiarities in mind. Which might have produced a vastly different looking game.

But taking Sega Rally as an example of Saturn's capabilities I would say it was one of the most impressive racers until the end of the console generation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs3d6KaU-bg

The texture detail and probably even the geometry I would say is better than what the N64 ever put out there.
This is the N64's most impressive racer in my book. Looks impressive, car models are great and so is the lighting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBUhDrnVvdg

The illusion breaks once you check it on an emulator with HD res. The environment geometry though and textures are terrible.::
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfwq93Tc4iM

And this is how awesome Sega Rally looks on an emulator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcaeiqCbRYY

Then again Sega Rally lacks any kind of reflections, proper lighting effects and transparencies. We really cant have a like for like comparison.
Any game that had to be developed for the Saturn had to be designed around what the Saturn could do. If something the Saturn couldnt do, you had to find another compensation through some smart art direction and design that exploited Saturn's peculiarities.
I.e even in games like Resident Evil where the only polygon models were some objects and the characters, had cut backs
Here is Resi1 emulated on PS1 and Saturn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJMzZx1EymU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm0hYQm1Ejk
Character models on the Sega Saturn were blockier, textures had banding, and the lighting on the models was flatter.
View attachment 6446
View attachment 6444

And here is ofcourse Resi 2 emulated on PS1 and N64 to check the assets:
View attachment 6447View attachment 6448

PS1 seems to punch a little bit more geometry and texture detail. If a Saturn version existed the assets would have probably had a bit more texture detail, but with worse shading and polygon numbers. It is extremely difficult to say how the Saturn competes to the N64 hardware because it works so differently.
These tech domos for saturn are really showing some epic things on saturn!



 
Shenmue on Saturn is definitely showing geometry out of ps1/n64s reach!

Possibly. But you will see big sarcifices made in other areas. There is zero gourad shading and a complete absense of lighting effects (edit: or maybe there is gourad shading? Cant really say if thats just painted texture and the surface look smooth because of complete absence of light). The framerate is also very very low.
I did some search in the past about the shenmue demo and it wasn't running on the saturn itself, but a souped up version of the hardware with additional ram.
 
Last edited:
Possibly. But you will see big sarcifices made in other areas. There is zero gourad shading and a complete absense of lighting effects (edit: or maybe there is gourad shading? Cant really say if thats just painted texture and the surface look smooth because of complete absence of light). The framerate is also very very low.
I did some search in the past about the shenmue demo and it wasn't running on the saturn itself, but a souped up version of the hardware with additional ram.
To me, it looks like Saturn Shenmue uses static gouraud shading to help increase the color depth of 4 bit textures. There's definitely no realtime lighting, though.

I could have sworn I read somewhere that someone from AM2 said that Saturn Shenmue ran on a stock, unupgraded Saturn, but I can't find where I saw it now. I remember a lot of people kept claiming that an early version of VF3 on MAME (with flat shading) was a version of VF3 on Saturn, so I'm kind of distrustful of what people claim the Saturn is doing or needs, unless it's from an actual developer. And I while I couldn't find where I read Saturn Shenmue was on stock, I also didn't find anyone from AM2 saying it used an upgrade (just blog posts claiming it did). I don't think requiring major hardware upgrades for such a late release makes business sense, so an additional GPU for one game would be out of the question. MAYBE the RAM upgrade cart could have been used, but definitely not something more than that.
 
I could have sworn I read somewhere that someone from AM2 said that Saturn Shenmue ran on a stock, unupgraded Saturn, but I can't find where I saw it now.

Yeah I've definitely read that from either AM2 or YS himself. More than once. Also no RAM expansion cart either.

Additional memory on the cartridge bus wouldn't help VDP1 process textured polygons any faster, and an individual polygonal frame had to be generated from what was in VDP1 memory (512KB texture / display list, frame buffer memory being 2 x 256KB banks iirc).

By early 97 Shenmue development had already moved to the (no devkits yet) Dreamcast. The Saturn Shenmue pre-alpha wasn't by any means the pinnacle of what the Saturn could do, it was just the point where one of the most technically proficient Saturn developers were instructed to move on from the platform. Only a handful of teams were both sufficiently talented and sufficiently motivated (i.e. tasked and funded) to be able to push the hardware like that.

The Saturn's problems weren't predominantly hardware based though; they were management based. You can't code around that.
 
Last edited:
Yeah I've definitely read that from either AM2 or YS himself. More than once. Also no RAM expansion cart either.
  • 1996 – (late summer) RPG Project begins development by AM2 after the completion of Virtua Fighter 3.
  • The project is assigned the codename GUPPY and is based on an original script written by Suzuki.

    NOTE: GUPPY is also the name of a new Saturn hardware design in the works by Sega of Japan. This coincidence suggests that Suzuki’s project would be the software demo made specifically to show off this new hardware. In other words, GUPPY would consist of both Hardware & Software components. (see the following video for evidence of this. timecode: 17:19)
  • “The team had already remade it once in order to run on a Saturn that had been specifically EXPANDED with an ACCELERATION BOARD” -Okayasu (citation)
  • Following numerous discussions with AM2 and SEGA management, it is concluded to be a spin-off of Virtua Fighter, taking full advantage of the franchises’ popularity and the characters, who’s identities and combat animations are ready for use.
  • The official title becomes “Virtua Fighter RPG: Akira’s Story”
1684388404009.png
  • 1st Build: stock Saturn hardware – “OLD MAN
  • 2nd Build: “extended/accelerated” Saturn hardware – “GUPPY
  • 3rd Build: Katana hardware – “PROJECT BERKELEY
It is most likely the 1st build was the hardware test version to see what is capable to ahieve for the project.
The 2nd build is likely the version we have seen footage from as it appears to have a lot more development with it including gameplay.
 
Last edited:
The released video of Saturn Shenmue was confirmed as being from stock Saturn. Conspiracy theorys are both predictable and tiresome.
 
To me, it looks like Saturn Shenmue uses static gouraud shading to help increase the color depth of 4 bit textures. There's definitely no realtime lighting, though.

I could have sworn I read somewhere that someone from AM2 said that Saturn Shenmue ran on a stock, unupgraded Saturn, but I can't find where I saw it now. I remember a lot of people kept claiming that an early version of VF3 on MAME (with flat shading) was a version of VF3 on Saturn, so I'm kind of distrustful of what people claim the Saturn is doing or needs, unless it's from an actual developer. And I while I couldn't find where I read Saturn Shenmue was on stock, I also didn't find anyone from AM2 saying it used an upgrade (just blog posts claiming it did). I don't think requiring major hardware upgrades for such a late release makes business sense, so an additional GPU for one game would be out of the question. MAYBE the RAM upgrade cart could have been used, but definitely not something more than that.
There was a lot of hardware inside of the saturn and if a butterfly flapped its wings differently there could have been a 100m + of them out there and devs doing everything in their power to push out the best possible looking games. Instead the saturn died right as people were finding new ways to make use of it.

Of course the sheer amount of hardware in the saturn was also its downfall.
 
The released video of Saturn Shenmue was confirmed as being from stock Saturn. Conspiracy theorys are both predictable and tiresome.
But the information I posted are coming from the creators themselves. Which video are you refering to? If the video said it is running on a Saturn, the specially expanded Saturn is still a Saturn
 
I've played a lot of Wave Race 64. I think I like it more than Mario Kart 64 because the racing has more strategy and learning curve, with the wave interaction and overall style. It has a solid, seemingly forgotten Gamecube sequel too.

The Gamecube sequel lacks that something that made '64 great. Actually, I'd say the same for several GameCube follow ups to N64 titles. 1080, Mario Kart* and Mario sequels didn't quite hit the mark. Wind Waker is special though, as is FZero GX.

* 64 was fun, even if it lacked the tightness of Super. Subsequent Karts make me sad.
 
Double Dash is my least favorite Mario Kart. It's fine and all, not a bad game or anything. But it's not a game I go for if I'm in the mood to play Mario Kart.

I was crushed. :) 'Super is tight thrill ride and '64 could have some great multiplayer race and battle matches. Starting a Dash race felt like being ready a wide rollercoaster and getting on the kids caterpillar ride by mistake.
 
But the information I posted are coming from the creators themselves. Which video are you refering to? If the video said it is running on a Saturn, the specially expanded Saturn is still a Saturn

@Nesh I would like to apologise for that response. I was tired, dealing with other issues, and drunk. I was an asshole.

I don't have a link right now - too many years gone by. The Saturn Shenmue footage was always said by AM2 members to be running on stock Saturn. You can kind of see this with the static lighting, use of VDP2 for certain things, and low frame rate. Texture quality shows signs of experience with the Saturn's limits, but nothing further.

I knew that AM2 were the lead team in developing for the Saturn accelerator addon because it was massively talked about for managing the VF3 port (which never even got to the point of promo screenshots). You shared convo about porting to the Saturn accelerator cart (which frustratingly no-one has ever shared specs for) so kudos to you for that.

Floors aside (VDP2), I think the Playstation could have generally done the publicly released Saturn Shenmue as well or perhaps even better than the Saturn if sufficiently reworked. No accelerator required.
 
No. Stop.
The evidence is that some untrustworthy party claims that it runs on the Saturn. Unless we can see it running on a Saturn, the claims are bogus. How often do we hear devs claim X or Y is running in real time on real hardware only for it to be false?

Either you prove this runs on a Saturn or this is a non-starter.
 
The evidence is that some untrustworthy party claims that it runs on the Saturn. Unless we can see it running on a Saturn, the claims are bogus. How often do we hear devs claim X or Y is running in real time on real hardware only for it to be false?

Either you prove this runs on a Saturn or this is a non-starter.

Why do you care what I think?

AM2 gurus said it was. And did so modestly. If you have a bone to pick, then pick it with them. Or with your parents or with whatever the fuck.

I'm disappointed by you.
 
Back
Top