Sega Saturn vs N64 hardware wise

[Nesh]

its such shame because, considering what their internal studios could output despite Segas mismanagement and troubled hardware architectude, the Saturn would have been a dream machine if they made better decisions

The Saturn 3D capabilities would have been even more limited if Sony wasnt part of the picture. Its because of them that they further enhanced the Saturn's 3D capabilities. It appears that they followed the 32X's paradigm where elements were handled by the genesis and other by the 32X hardware. My gut feeling tells me that they were probably planning to salvage R&D or hardware design from the 32X+Genesis combo with a few enhancements, to save costs and thus keep supporting the genesis and their new console in tanteem.

And then they got the shock when the PSX showed super impressive 3D visuals.

I remember the presentation of the Panzer Dragoon Saga devs describing their experience when they first saw the PSX specs and then Ridge Racer and thought that they were screwed.

 

[eastmen]

its such shame because, considering what their internal studios could output despite Segas mismanagement and troubled hardware architectude, the Saturn would have been a dream machine if they made better decisions

The Saturn 3D capabilities would have been even more limited if Sony wasnt part of the picture. Its because of them that they further enhanced the Saturn's 3D capabilities. It appears that they followed the 32X's paradigm where elements were handled by the genesis and other by the 32X hardware. My gut feeling tells me that they were probably planning to salvage R&D or hardware design from the 32X+Genesis combo with a few enhancements, to save costs and thus keep supporting the genesis and their new console in tanteem.

And then they got the shock when the PSX showed super impressive 3D visuals.

I remember the presentation of the Panzer Dragoon Saga devs describing their experience when they first saw the PSX specs and then Ridge Racer and thought that they were screwed.

I think that would have been the optimal scenario for Sega. No sony , launch a powerful 2d machine that would have been unrivaled in the era of consoles. Saturn launched Nov of 94 in japan while the n64 launched june of 96. So they would have had a good 18 months or so of sales before the n64 even released. I think they would have been fine with the head start and strong 2d content.

The other option with no sony would have been a later release of the console with Video Logics power vr series 1 . The pc cards released in 96 so it would have launched in a similar time frame as the n64 or maybe they could have had it out the door holiday of 95. But I think this is the less plausible option. Perhaps 3dfx would have been in the cards. They released the voodoo in 95. Not sure if the cost would have been too high for that.

 

[laymanpigeon]

Saturn is fascinating, and without the PS1 it would have been remembered as being a legendary and powerful system. In the face of the PS1 it was just a little too limited with 3D, a little too fiddly, and too expensive for Sega to be competitive with. You can't just keep expanding systems with additional processors, additional individual banks of memory and additional interconnects - eventually it just become too fiddly and too expensive.

My suggestion did not increase number of processors as its about restructuring.
At minimum SH-1 and 68000 are to be replaced by a single SH-2 processor.
Motherboard layout/complexity then would have been a bit simpler.
Another is Audio and CD-ROM cache could then be unified together.
Thus it could be balanced between cached sound and game's data.
Perhaps Full Motion Video playback quality may have been better.
Also SDRAM replacing all FPM RAM to reduce latency of system.
Also widen data bus thus main CPU's access RAM same time.
10 to 25 percent increase in overall performance if this done.
Depends if developer can sync their game code well.
At end of the day high latency is performance killer.

 

[function]

My suggestion did not increase number of processors as its about restructuring.
At minimum SH-1 and 68000 are to be replaced by a single SH-2 processor.
Motherboard layout/complexity then would have been a bit simpler.
Another is Audio and CD-ROM cache could then be unified together.
Thus it could be balanced between cached sound and game's data.
Perhaps Full Motion Video playback quality may have been better.
Also SDRAM replacing all FPM RAM to reduce latency of system.
Also widen data bus thus main CPU's access RAM same time.
10 to 25 percent increase in overall performance if this done.
Depends if developer can sync their game code well.
At end of the day high latency is performance killer.

Trouble is you can't just rearrange parts so easily.

SH1 was on the end of a different bus off the system control unit, the one where the CD-ROM and optional MPEG card went. The sound chip was off a different bus again, and there was some weirdness about how the 68ec000 operated - you had to give it instructions and data through the sound chip or something and it could only access memory through the sound chip. The SH1 on the CD subsystem actually handled mechanical control and error correction as well as CD file access - you probably wouldn't have wanted developers throwing their own sound stuff on there even if you could have.

The CPUs were only crudely designed for multi processor work, so one had to be slaved to the other. Straight doubling the bus and putting an SH2 on each half wouldn't have worked. I don't know a lot about hardware, but it's more complex than that unfortunately. You'd probably need changes to the SH2 itself and a more complex memory controller. The system they used was probably the best one they had available in the time they had.

Sega were in a bit of a bind by the time they knew what they were up against, and there was no way they were ever going to be able to cost reduce the Saturn competitively with the PS1. Still, interesting machine even now so I got my monies worth!

 

[laymanpigeon]

Sega easily added another SH-2 processor and there is a reason that one is slaved.
Because system RAM data bus is 32bit thus depends on main to give access to it.
2nd core is same as 1st core, it can on its own access DRAM yet it was slaved.

All of main system RAM for both SH-2 should have been SDRAM.
Not one being 1MB of FPM DRAM and then 1MB of SDRAM.
Both 1MB SDRAM and one more SH-2 is reaction to PS1.

In order to sync it with 1st core on DRAM access to minimize conflict between two.
As for 68000, Sega probably at one point considered backward compatibility.
Afterall when there is also cartridge slot on Saturn itself too.

Sega should have had SH-1 and 68000 replaced with SH-2.
That SH-2 could have then managed 1MB of DRAM.
Developers should have then memory control of it.

Possibly have enough space on motherboard for one more 1MB of RAM.
Perhaps then there would not have been need for ROM cartridges.
Mostly fighting games had it for sake of eliminating bottlenecks.

Those changes would have forced Sega to raise price of Saturn.
By 50USD that is 12.5% increase yet performance up by 25%.
There would no need for 1MB DRAM expansion cartridge.
As some Japanese games apparently needed it.

Shenmue could have been released on Saturn in 1998.
More so if 4MB RAM expansion cartridge was utilized.
Then 8MB of RAM could be available for game data.
Not counting total 1.5MB of VRAM DRAM for VDPs.

 

[Nesh]

The cartridges added logistical complications. How many units do you sell more expensively with a cartridge and how many units without?
Sone people already owned a cartridge so they certainly wouldnt want to pay extra for another. On the other hand not having the cartridge but requiring it created confusion and for some probably some disatisfaction that they should buy extra hardware.

Sega should have learned their lesson with the genesis how additional hardware requirements didnt help sales

 

[laymanpigeon]

I have trouble understanding point of your reply as it doesn't make sense to me for something apparently written in English.
So I am not sure what you are trying to tell me and your formatting of text is terrible that it is hard for me to read it like at all.
I am not even sure you are aware of what cartridges are with how you talk about it, maybe I should ignore your nonsense.

Cartridge is separate from console so there is no with or without unless it is some bundle later on when it is released.
One of cartridges that Saturn had involved it being storage for save games, that is different from RAM expansion cart.
Having RAM expansion cartridge would allow games that are larger levels and or more complex environment.

Thus would prolong lifespan of the console, especially if there were ports of newer games from 1998 and later.

 

[Nesh]

I m talking about the RAM expansion cartridges.
I dont understand where you are confused. As an idea and ideal scenario it suggest prolonging the lifespan because it is supposed to bring out more impressive games.

But practically it made logistics and sales of these games more complicated.

I.e you already own the 4MB Cartrige because you bought expensively Final Fight Revenge (a crap game btw) that was packed with the expansion. Now Sega releases Shenmue with the 4MB. At the store you discover that the only version available is the one with the cartridge packed in, but you already own the cartridge so you dont want to unnecessarilly pay more. Or picture this, you dont own a cartridge, and Shenmue is the only game you care that requires a cartridge. But you dont know it. You buy Shenmue with no cartridge you go home and discover you need to pay extra $30 for a RAM expansion. Lets say the disk was already $60 but the total cost is an eye watering $90 for a single game. We are talking about the 90s. These higher prices arent helping sell more games

Meanwhile on PS1 you just bought FF8 just as you bought any other PS1 game

Mandatory expansions/add ons historically almost never worked, if at all at expanding a console's life

 

[see colon]

Final Fight Revenge (a crap game btw)

I'm going to have to ask you to take that back.
In all seriousness, it's not the best fighting game or anything, but it is far from the worst. And on a technical level, it has much less polygon breakup than most 3d games on Saturn. It's just not a very good Final Fight game. But it's still better than Streetwise.

Mandatory expansions/add ons historically almost never worked, if at all at expanding a console's life

I can't think of a single example of this happening. Famously, the only add on that was ever a success was 360's Kinect, and I wouldn't say that it extended the console's life. In fact, it's success lead Microsoft to believe that Xbox One needed to be bundled with Kinect, son it effectively doomed the next generation for them.

Maybe you could stretch logic enough to include SNES's FX chip. I do think Nintendo was able to market against PS1 with games like Yoshi's Island, which released in Japan almost a year after Playstation was released IIRC. And honestly, Yoshi's Island does sort of hold up against many earlier PS1 2d games in terms of graphical features. But FX wasn't a dedicated add on, it was inside the carts.

 

[function]

Sega easily added another SH-2 processor and there is a reason that one is slaved.
Because system RAM data bus is 32bit thus depends on main to give access to it.
2nd core is same as 1st core, it can on its own access DRAM yet it was slaved.

All of main system RAM for both SH-2 should have been SDRAM.
Not one being 1MB of FPM DRAM and then 1MB of SDRAM.
Both 1MB SDRAM and one more SH-2 is reaction to PS1.

In order to sync it with 1st core on DRAM access to minimize conflict between two.
As for 68000, Sega probably at one point considered backward compatibility.
Afterall when there is also cartridge slot on Saturn itself too.

Sega should have had SH-1 and 68000 replaced with SH-2.
That SH-2 could have then managed 1MB of DRAM.
Developers should have then memory control of it.

Possibly have enough space on motherboard for one more 1MB of RAM.
Perhaps then there would not have been need for ROM cartridges.
Mostly fighting games had it for sake of eliminating bottlenecks.

Those changes would have forced Sega to raise price of Saturn.
By 50USD that is 12.5% increase yet performance up by 25%.
There would no need for 1MB DRAM expansion cartridge.
As some Japanese games apparently needed it.

Shenmue could have been released on Saturn in 1998.
More so if 4MB RAM expansion cartridge was utilized.
Then 8MB of RAM could be available for game data.
Not counting total 1.5MB of VRAM DRAM for VDPs.

Doubling the width of the bus wouldn't have meant you could just put two SH2's on it, and have each SH2 with its own 1MB pool would have created it's own set of headaches and required a massive last minute redesign of the SCU to be more complex and need a more complex mobo.

The 68EC000 on the Saturn could never have been used for backwards compatibility - it was a cut back chip designed to be used as an audio controller. It accessed everything through the audio chip, probably couldn't even execute the tasks it did in the Megadrive due to various restrictions. I highly doubt that VDP1 was backwards compatible with the VDP in the MD. And the cartridge port is electrically incompatible with the MD. The backwards compatibility boat sailed as soon as Sega opted for SH2 as CPU.

And you couldn't have replaced the SH1 and 68EC000 with an SH2 without a massive redesign of the rest of the system. You probably couldn't have connected an SH2 to the audio chip, and I don't think you'd want developers writing arbitrary code directly to the chip doing all the security checks and physical control of the CD-ROM.

I don't think there were any routes to success that involved the Saturn being made more expensive to manufacture. And frequently performance could be limited by quirks of VDP1 which was not efficient at texturing quads, and the 4MB ram expansion didn't help with that (or resolution) it just meant you could swap in things like textures / sprites really quickly.

 

[laymanpigeon]

Again Nesh, you don't make any sense.

I am reading your reply and I don't see any valid argument, if it even can be called an "argument" at all.
Because you ignore many inconvenient details in order to assert scenario that doesn't make sense.
Considering what I have written in my posts that you intentionally ignore those details.

I said for example if Sega did this to Saturn then there would not be need for RAM expansion cartridge.
As early on there were 1MB and later 4MB expansion cartridges that some games in Japan required.
That would not be the case if Saturn had one more MB of RAM as CD-ROM cache.

I don't see how your detached scenario could have been possible at all to any conceivable degree in mine.
Because 4MB RAM expansion cartridge certainly would not have come before if Shenmue was on Saturn.
Did you get Majora's Mask and did not read or ignored it needed Expansion Pak in order to function?

Now onto Function, another one that doesn't make any sense.

First of all because of assertion that each SH-2 must have own 1MB of RAM pool as if it can not be shared.
If there were two 1MB 32bit SDRAM chips as Work RAM then 16bits of each per SH-2 processor.
Even if not shared, there is two-way connection between those two SH-2 processors.

Asserting that boat has sailed away when Sega choose SH-2 for their CPU is outright false and utter lie.
Not only that it ignores history as Sega Genesis had Z80 processor that was used for audio.
Thus Mega Drive was backward compatible with games made for Master System.

SH-2 apparently could not handle audio chip while SH-1 can process Full Motion Video's on its own.
With or without MPEG decompressor that adds 512KB of FPM DRAM and 512KB program ROM.
Developers already did when SH-1 placed soon needed game data to CD-ROM DRAM cache.

Performance of VDP1 would increase by fact that SH-2 assigned to it would be less idling for data.
Because there would be next to no conflict over Work RAM access between SH-2 processors.
Another is that SH-2 could then use data bus between each other more efficiently.

4MB RAM expansion cartridge would effectively eliminate stutter and idling caused by waiting for data.
Especially for complex games such as Shenmue that would also allow greater size of playing field.
Streaming game data would be like Crash Bandicoot does, just to absurd degree in comparison.

Adding one more MB of FPM DRAM would be 10USD, replacing SH-1 and 68K with SH-2 would reduce costs.
Do note that Saturn did not have second SH-2 nor VDP at beginning of 1994, only by mid to end of 1994.
Adding one more SH-2, VDP and DRAM is very large change to architecture and design of Sega Saturn.

Sega Saturn would likely, almost assuredly sold at same price it launched even if it had my alterations to hardware.

 

[Nesh]

I'm going to have to ask you to take that back.
In all seriousness, it's not the best fighting game or anything, but it is far from the worst. And on a technical level, it has much less polygon breakup than most 3d games on Saturn. It's just not a very good Final Fight game. But it's still better than Streetwise.

The fighting mechanics were awkward and didnt make much sense to me. It felt clunky and slow. The silliness at least gave some giggles and I think it was fun playing with friends to enjoy the game's humor and randomness together.
I would say the game was very humorous which contrasted the dark, underground atmosphere (which was also subtly humorous btw) of the original beat em up.

I think I couldnt appreciate the technical accomplishment of the game due to it's weird art, blocky models and animations. It is the closet the Saturn got to SF EX. Which is weird because SF EX has a much better flow, mechanics and controls. Capcom could have used what they achieved from EX and implement it a lot better

I can't think of a single example of this happening. Famously, the only add on that was ever a success was 360's Kinect, and I wouldn't say that it extended the console's life. In fact, it's success lead Microsoft to believe that Xbox One needed to be bundled with Kinect, son it effectively doomed the next generation for them.

Maybe you could stretch logic enough to include SNES's FX chip. I do think Nintendo was able to market against PS1 with games like Yoshi's Island, which released in Japan almost a year after Playstation was released IIRC. And honestly, Yoshi's Island does sort of hold up against many earlier PS1 2d games in terms of graphical features. But FX wasn't a dedicated add on, it was inside the carts.

Exactly

 

[Nesh]

Again Nesh, you don't make any sense.

I am reading your reply and I don't see any valid argument, if it even can be called an "argument" at all.
Because you ignore many inconvenient details in order to assert scenario that doesn't make sense.
Considering what I have written in my posts that you intentionally ignore those details.

I said for example if Sega did this to Saturn then there would not be need for RAM expansion cartridge.
As early on there were 1MB and later 4MB expansion cartridges that some games in Japan required.
That would not be the case if Saturn had one more MB of RAM as CD-ROM cache.

I don't see how your detached scenario could have been possible at all to any conceivable degree in mine.
Because 4MB RAM expansion cartridge certainly would not have come before if Shenmue was on Saturn.
Did you get Majora's Mask and did not read or ignored it needed Expansion Pak in order to function?

Now onto Function, another one that doesn't make any sense.

First of all because of assertion that each SH-2 must have own 1MB of RAM pool as if it can not be shared.
If there were two 1MB 32bit SDRAM chips as Work RAM then 16bits of each per SH-2 processor.
Even if not shared, there is two-way connection between those two SH-2 processors.

Asserting that boat has sailed away when Sega choose SH-2 for their CPU is outright false and utter lie.
Not only that it ignores history as Sega Genesis had Z80 processor that was used for audio.
Thus Mega Drive was backward compatible with games made for Master System.

SH-2 apparently could not handle audio chip while SH-1 can process Full Motion Video's on its own.
With or without MPEG decompressor that adds 512KB of FPM DRAM and 512KB program ROM.
Developers already did when SH-1 placed soon needed game data to CD-ROM DRAM cache.

Performance of VDP1 would increase by fact that SH-2 assigned to it would be less idling for data.
Because there would be next to no conflict over Work RAM access between SH-2 processors.
Another is that SH-2 could then use data bus between each other more efficiently.

4MB RAM expansion cartridge would effectively eliminate stutter and idling caused by waiting for data.
Especially for complex games such as Shenmue that would also allow greater size of playing field.
Streaming game data would be like Crash Bandicoot does, just to absurd degree in comparison.

Adding one more MB of FPM DRAM would be 10USD, replacing SH-1 and 68K with SH-2 would reduce costs.
Do note that Saturn did not have second SH-2 nor VDP at beginning of 1994, only by mid to end of 1994.
Adding one more SH-2, VDP and DRAM is very large change to architecture and design of Sega Saturn.

Sega Saturn would likely, almost assuredly sold at same price it launched even if it had my alterations to hardware.

Oh it seems I didnt quite get what you were saying. And I am still not sure.
In a hypothetical scenario where the Saturn had more memory, then yeah it would have made the cartridge redundant.
But it didn't so the 4MB RAM expansion was in general a disaster especially for a dying console.

N64's expansion pack was not required for the games that supported it. So in terms of extending the console's life it didnt do much. You can see here that only 2 games required it to play and Perfect Dark required it to function fully.

Nintendo 64 accessories - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The two titles that required it to play were Majora's Mask and Donkey Kong 64. Two flagship titles that were highly anticipated with an already established super strong fanbase and a pre-existing history. So Nintendo knew they could run away with it for those extremely few super hyped titles. Creating a complete library of games that required it, often with enhancements that are not clearly visible doesn't work. The Saturn barely had any franchise that was just as highly anticipated and it never reached the critical mass to support such a venture viably. Lets say the Saturn released Shenmue and Panzer Dragoon Saga with 4MB as mandatory, none of the enhancements would have been tangible enough to sell more. And even if it were, they would have still not helped the console much. They might have hindered sales too. Maybe if Sega had the 4MB expansion since the console's launch it might have helped a bit better. But it still makes games sales complicated.

Surely if you reach a critical mass and you have a strong title to support it, you can jave the luxury get people on board. Then again why bother if your sales are already too good without it?

 

[laymanpigeon]

Many games after 1998 on Nintendo 64 made use of 4MB Expansion Pak.
Some required it in order to fuction fully or for more demanding section.
For other higher rendering and or texture resolution and or framerate.

On Saturn it made possible for more complex 2D arcade quality fighting games.
If Saturn lived on until 2000 then it would have had Street Fighter 3 series on it.
Fatal flaw of 4MB Extended RAM Cartridge is not being released outside Japan.

There would have been considerably 3rd third party games being ported to Saturn.
If Saturn had changes to architecture to improve performance as I suggested.
Perhaps Diablo and other EA games could have been released on Saturn.

PlayStation had Diablo and so could have had Saturn if hardware wasn't as flawed.
Then Diablo II if 4MB Extended RAM Cartridge was released outside Japan in 98.
In our timeline it was relesased one year before Nintendo 64's Expansion Pak.

 

[Nesh]

Surely the Saturn was able to put out some pretty impressive 2D fighting games and improve some other games with the expansion, nobody disputed it

But whats your argument in favor of the 4MB RAM as an add on that shows that it would have been a viable commercial success?

Even the successful N64 had limited support and not mandatory use for the expansion card as shown in the link I provided apart from 2 or 3 games.

 

[laymanpigeon]

You have no argument when resorting to "Why it wasn't mandatory" shtick.

Add-on that expands amount of RAM to system provides an option for developers.
It doesn't have to mandatory if they achieve what they set out to do without it.
They can use it to provide better performance, resolution and or graphics.

There are games that could not be viable without RAM add-on.
It is more down to earth than 32X to juice up Sega Genesis.
Even Jaguar with hellishly bugged hardware beat that.

 

[Nesh]

Ok, but I dont know what you are arguing about. I agreed that it provided head room to developers.

But you havent answered what evidence are thare that prove it would have been a viable commercial success.
I didnt ask about its advantages to developers.

The N64 didnt mass use it and only 2-3 games required it to function. The few others used it optionally. So what is there to suggest that the 4MB card on the Saturn would have benefited it commercially?

 

[eastmen]

I think the trick with the expansion cart would be to introduce it as an option. Looking back lets say in 1994 or something and try and get all games to take advantage of it as a nice to have type thing. Then in like 1996 or 1997 have games that required it.

It wasn't a single expansion product that doomed sega. It was the combination of the sega cd and 32x. Remember there were games that requied just the genesis then games that required the genesis and sega cd or the genesis an 32. But then there was also a group of games that required the sega genesis + sega cd + 32x. I think that is where the issue was. If sega just had released the sega cd and moved to the saturn perhaps things would have been different and we can't assume a single thing like a memory expansion would have cause the same issues as two expansions units. Wasn't the sega cd like $200 usd at launch and the 32x $150 ?

I think however it would have been best for Sega to simply have reduce the amount of chips inside of the console while also having more powerful chips than what ultimately ended up in the saturn. That is why I was a fan of them going with power vr or some other gpu company. Dual SH-2s with a power vr series 1 or voodoo 1 would have made a great system.


Edit

Sega CD pricing at launch

	JP¥49,800 US$299 GB£270

Sega 32x

Introductory price	US$159.99[2] £169.99[3]

 

[Nesh]

Certainly the Saturn RAM expansions could have never reach the disaster SEGA CD and the 32X were.
Thats for sure

 

[see colon]

Many games after 1998 on Nintendo 64 made use of 4MB Expansion Pak.
Some required it in order to fuction fully or for more demanding section.
For other higher rendering and or texture resolution and or framerate.

2 require it (DK and Zelda MM). 1 needs it to fully function (Perfect Dark). Every other game that uses it runs just fine, and sometimes better, if you disable the unique modes available if you have it installed. Except maybe Quake 2. So you have essentially 4 games that "needed" the Expansion pak for the full experience.