*Rumors Spin-off* 360 & Blu Ray

[patsu]

Blu-ray is much larger than Netflix though. The latter is only US-based. Netflix still makes its money from physical rental too. It should not be difficult to find total XBL subscription numbers (though not all will watch HD movie from it) to compare with Blu-ray players worldwide (Only 66% PS3 folks watch Blu-ray).

Also Sony invested more than just codecs into Blu-ray. It is a much larger stack.

The BDA will evolve Blu-ray to compete well in the market (e.g., Less restrictive DRM, 3D, better quality, digital downloading of new episodes or lesser quality media, etc.). These are already done today.

Similarly, digital distribution will evolve to try to take more share (e.g., adjust release schedule).

For more exploratory use cases, they can look at peer-to-peer selling and other value-added movie applications due to BD-Live.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think Joshua's point is more that 'won the HiDef war' is inaccurate, as the HiDef war is ongoing. Sony won the optical format battle, but the war rages on on several fronts. Netflix, for example, is also headed for PS3. I dare say inclusion of a BRD drive is important for being an HD device, but it isn't the be-all-and-end-all.

 

[patsu]

There was only 1 HDM war: HDDVD vs Blu-ray.

There is no war between digital download and HD disc media per se. Both will thrive and can co-exist. The world is huge and diverse. You'll also find the technologies cross-pollinate each other. e.g., the cable settop box "standard" has very similar technologies to BD-Live on Blu-ray.

As for missing out on Blu-ray, it's something for the enthusiasts and increasingly the casuals too. My wife rented Netflix Blu-ray on her own without me asking her to switch. We watched movies from all networks too (cable, satellite, PSN, Netflix, YouTube, iTunes, overseas video websites, etc.)

 

[Acert93]

There was only 1 HDM war: HDDVD vs Blu-ray.

And my point was that we shouldn't limit "HiDef war" (not HDM, so don't move the ball to counter my point) to physical media. It is an antiquated concept. Media is no longer bound to a storage format.

There is no war between digital download and HD disc media per se.

The Wii doesn't compete against the PS2 and PS3, per se. But for consumer dollars and mind share it does in that there is overlap and even competition in many segments and consumer have to choose where those dollars go.

BluRay and various Digital Distribution vendors are competing for consumer dollars, mindshare, and residual service in terms of consumer resources with media. If I have the choice of Batman on BDR and Live, and I choose Lve, indeed a competition has taken place and I have chosen one over the other.

Saying "PS3 ran away with that one and won the HiDef war" to which I responded pretty much ignores that the HiDef war on the consoles, and in the general market, is far from over.

The PS3 has not won the HiDef war. It got a moral victory against HD-DVD, but its bigger competitor continues to gain momentum and market relevance.

Both will thrive and can co-exist.

Both can--but will is a prediction. BluRay is certainly no DVD, and even the mighty DVD is faultering. As a physical format BluRay's days are numbered. The issue is how high will BluRay get, and how long before it has a swan song.

And this is where ignoring the *current* competition from DD is like looking through rose colored lenses. Maybe every DD distributor today is small fries in 5 years. But when DVD was released it pretty much had no real competition: It didn't fight a legacy format that consumers had a hard time differentiating nor required new hardware to gain benefit, it didn't have a strong co-launch competition, it didn't find itself being ignored by the strongest selling console platforms, it wasn't fighting a new delivery platform independant of hardware players, and its replacement was about 10 years from relevance. DVD players were flying off the shelves at an amazing rate at the $100 price point.

So while I agree BluRay can co-exist, the longterm prognosis for it thriving is a little more up in the air. It depends on how we define "thrive." But there is no argueing against the factg that at the end of the day DD is fighting for consumer dollars that BluRay would largely capitolize on if DD did not exist.

At this point I don't think enthusiests will be the ones to determine the "winner" either. At this point cost, accessability, and consumer satisfaction are the big factors for mass market penetration and sustainability. At this point every format and vendor is fighting for their future--so the HiDef war is far, far from over.

And the PS3 certainly didn't win the HiDef war for Sony. Maybe if they had shipped in 2005 at a reasonable cost and had a better handle on codecs and such they could have stifled the competition by being not only the best, but first.

 

[patsu]

And my point was that we shouldn't limit "HiDef war" (not HDM, so don't move the ball to counter my point) to physical media. It is an antiquated concept. Media is no longer bound to a storage format.

The HDDVD vs Blu-ray was called a HDM war because the industry only wanted to support one format. They serve the same exact needs. Digital distribution and Blu-ray are not so clear cut. They are competiting channels serving different needs. The studios may (or may not) gain more by supporting both channels. We shall see.

That's why there is no war here.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

BluRay is certainly no DVD...

I though BRD was growing faster than DVD? Then again the only link I can find is talking about Japan, not worldwide.

 

[patsu]

I though BRD was growing faster than DVD? Then again the only link I can find is talking about Japan, not worldwide.

It was an IFA 2009 presentation.
The growth rate was referring to worldwide, not Japan only. It's attributed to PS3.

Many people on the fora simply look at a narrow subset of use cases (convenience, 1080p). I think if Blu-ray is allowed to grow further, there'd be other benefits to the consumers. e.g., borrowing Blu-ray movies from public libraries for free (A friend is doing that now), taking an owned or rented Blu-ray disc to a friend's place to watch together (We are doing that now almost every week), copying content for fair use (joker454 is doing that for multiple platforms), etc.

 

[-tkf-]

And the PS3 certainly didn't win the HiDef war for Sony. Maybe if they had shipped in 2005 at a reasonable cost and had a better handle on codecs and such they could have stifled the competition by being not only the best, but first.

I don´t know how to answer this with a straight face

PS3 was a MAJOR factor in the HiDef War, and lets just say it didn´t win the war (which imho is bullshit, it did) then let me ask. Would Blu-Ray have won without it?, i would say it would be very very unlikely.

I found it amusing how this board had it´s fair share of people that claimed people weren´t picking up the PS3 to just watch Blu-Ray, while there was a number of people here that claimed that the reason the Software sales were so low was because people were mainly using it as a Blu-Ray player

Digital Distribution as of today is a major cluster fuck, it´s basicly competing with rental. It will take a totally new aproach to DD before it´s a real long term competitor to Disc based media.

If i buy (if i could lol) a movie on PSN then i am bound to some kind of device or at least a service from Sony for as long as i want to be able to see that movie.

The same goes for Microsoft, Netflix, DD Movie On demand, Acme Movies. Whatever the name. And i have to believe that the service will live for as long as i do. And i will most likely pay a fee for the basic access.

Add to that the basic fee for internet access, personal storage, whatever.

If my service provider decides to raise the fee, add a fee, move to a new platform etc etc, i have to follow. And what if MGM dies, and someone buys the rights to the movies, could i risk my movies getting pulled? Could i risk being asked for more dollars?

Add to this a totally fragmented market where everyone and their dog is offering DD downloads and purchases.

If i buy a movie from a Cable operator and move to somewhere else where there is a exlusive contract with another cable operator, then what?

I am looking forward to the future, when the PS4 and XBOX 720 will compete. And i am gonna enjoy the challenges that follows when digital bought stuff is either lost or has to be transferred to the next box.

Compared to one standard, Blu-Ray, with cheap disc to manufacture and the ability to play it everywhere in the world i think DD has a looooong way to go.

 

[RobertR1]

Writing big checks did more for Blu Ray than PS3. HD DVD vs BR was decided by politics and cash/service exchanges.

DD for music works just fine. Hell people buy BILLIONS of songs from itunes all the time that ONLY play on apple devices. Recently you buy music and in formats that can be played on multiple mediums.

Frankly, all these bullshit arguements have been played through back in thd CD vs Online days. DD will evolve and eventually become a major player in the market at the expense of physical media. You will still have discs available for purchase but people will steadily move forward to a DD model. So continue buying your discs (as I do also) but learn to accept that the market will have another player in it.

If you think your favorite disc pressing company isn't plotting to become the itunes for movies and tv shows, you're out of your mind.

 

[-tkf-]

Writing big checks did more for Blu Ray than PS3. HD DVD vs BR was decided by politics and cash/service exchanges.

DD for music works just fine. Hell people buy BILLIONS of songs from itunes all the time that ONLY play on apple devices. Recently you buy music and in formats that can be played on multiple mediums.

Frankly, all these bullshit arguements have been played through back in thd CD vs Online days. DD will evolve and eventually become a major player in the market at the expense of physical media. You will still have discs available for purchase but people will steadily move forward to a DD model. So continue buying your discs (as I do also) but learn to accept that the market will have another player in it.

If you think your favorite disc pressing company isn't plotting to become the itunes for movies and tv shows, you're out of your mind.

You calling them bullshit arguments, without taking them apart one by one is a bit sad. Maybe do that and we could have a usefull argument. a 5MB MP3 file on a iPOD is not the same as a 20GB AVC file.

You big check comment doesn´t help.

And for the record, when i can buy my $40 movie the same way i buy my online music, not copy protected, not worrired about space-) and playable on all devices i will be first in line.

 

[Acert93]

The HDDVD vs Blu-ray was called a HDM war because the industry only wanted to support one format. They serve the same exact needs. Digital distribution and Blu-ray are not so clear cut. They are competiting channels serving different needs. The studios may (or may not) gain more by supporting both channels. We shall see.

That's why there is no war here.

HiDef War versus HDM War. Not the same thing, not to mention it is an antiquated way of looking at media distribution. I have no time for obtuse bullet pointing. As for there being no war, the DD and BluRay are definitely competing for consumer dollars in huge markets.

And to actually pull this back on topic (neat how everything goes to one tangent with you two) is that the 360 already had a HiDef optical format that was dwarfed by DD. I think it is safe to say with DD media options being even richer now on the 360 than then + Growing every day (the instant selection is nuts) I don't see a BluRay drive being this mass market device. And the enthusiest by definition should already have a BluRay player.

There is no need for a BluRay player on the 360.

Maybe there is a niche demand for a Uber-1337 unit with BDR, HDMI 1.3, 250GB HDD, Wireless built in, maybe a HiFi shell, etc. But at this point in the consoles life driving down the price and integrating Natal (a true mass market addon) is where the focus is and should be.

 

[specwarGP2]

The HDDVD vs Blu-ray was called a HDM war because the industry only wanted to support one format. They serve the same exact needs. Digital distribution and Blu-ray are not so clear cut. They are competiting channels serving different needs. The studios may (or may not) gain more by supporting both channels. We shall see.

That's why there is no war here.

I dont see any war either. I see DD competing with and eventually replacing rentals, and BD positioned as a premium product that appeals to those consumers that prefer to own. Furthermore, physical media isn't going anywhere because studios love to double (and triple) dip by selling very profitable special editions, collector's editions, gift sets, etc.... I just dont see how a digital file can be marketed and have the same appeal to consumers.

 

[patsu]

Maybe there is a niche demand for a Uber-1337 unit with BDR, HDMI 1.3, 250GB HDD, Wireless built in, maybe a HiFi shell, etc. But at this point in the consoles life driving down the price and integrating Natal (a true mass market addon) is where the focus is and should be.

What you called "niche player" may in fact be the mainstream media player in Japan. Their predominant media players are BR recorders (already outsold DVD players/recorders starting last year). e.g., http://www.gizmag.com/go/8117/

Moving forward, we will see more BR devices with large capacity HDD and a network. The next gen cable settop box standard has similar specs (Java + HDD + HD movies + cable network + DRM). Natal may be mass market tomorrow but so is Blu-ray (today). I don't see why they are mutually exclusive.

Writing big checks did more for Blu Ray than PS3. HD DVD vs BR was decided by politics and cash/service exchanges.

DD for music works just fine. Hell people buy BILLIONS of songs from itunes all the time that ONLY play on apple devices. Recently you buy music and in formats that can be played on multiple mediums.

Frankly, all these bullshit arguements have been played through back in thd CD vs Online days. DD will evolve and eventually become a major player in the market at the expense of physical media. You will still have discs available for purchase but people will steadily move forward to a DD model. So continue buying your discs (as I do also) but learn to accept that the market will have another player in it.

If you think your favorite disc pressing company isn't plotting to become the itunes for movies and tv shows, you're out of your mind.

Consumers and the studios will want to keep both channels alive at this point. Netflix mentioned that their disc rental business will last 20 more years in their most recent financial report. Also there are persistent rumors that iTunes will support Blu-ray. Ballmer has pretty much confirmed that Windows Media will support it too.

 

[corduroygt]

Maybe there is a niche demand for a Uber-1337 unit with BDR, HDMI 1.3, 250GB HDD, Wireless built in

A console already exists with those specs and it's called the PS3. I don't think it's wise for MS to go toe-to-toe with PS3 in the HT arena, as you said natal and gaming for a low price should be their core business.

 

[-tkf-]

And to actually pull this back on topic (neat how everything goes to one tangent with you two)

What?`

If by "HiDef" you are only looking through the window of optical media.

In the context of Sony and MS (there are many other players in the HiDef game) MS got their codec in the ball game and have made a major push into digital distribution through a strong partnership with the biggest digital distribution outlet for HD movies and TV (Netflix) as well as their own thriving marketplace.

I know substantially more people using the Xbox marketplace, Netflix, Hulu, cable on demand services, etc to access HD content than going out buying BluRay players. This generation has seen the definition of media escape the claws of physical distribution formats. They aren't dead yet, but I think it is very, very narrow view to limit "HiDef war" to a physical format when a large segment of High Definition activity is taking place apart from a physical format.

Ohh!

 

[eastmen]

I suspect nwo that netflix is coming to the ps3 next month it will be considered a viable alternative to bluray for high def media by Sony fans now .

 

[patsu]

They are all just alternatives to each other. Blu-ray has the best quality. Youtube is free and has the worst quality on average. Everything else is in-between.

I have been using all of them so far. The only thing I have not tried is PlayTV, which is only available in PAL territories.

 

[eastmen]

They are all just alternatives to each other. Blu-ray has the best quality. Youtube is free and has the worst quality on average. Everything else is in-between.

I have been using all of them so far. The only thing I have not tried is PlayTV, which is only available in PAL territories.

Netflix isn't free.

Also depending on the stream the quality is very high , and considering some bluray transfers sometimes its on par with those (why did you have to screw up army of darknes bluray !!!! Why !!!)

Anyway ever dollar i spend on netflix and on vod and zune store is less money on bluray.

Bluray started loosing that battle last holiday season. The discs are still way to expensive for movies that are really old. $25 for army of darkness at bestbuy on bluray is insane when the dvd is $5 bucks. There is not a 5 times increase in value to justify the cost

 

[-tkf-]

Netflix isn't free.

Also depending on the stream the quality is very high , and considering some bluray transfers sometimes its on par with those (why did you have to screw up army of darknes bluray !!!! Why !!!)

Anyway ever dollar i spend on netflix and on vod and zune store is less money on bluray.

Bluray started loosing that battle last holiday season. The discs are still way to expensive for movies that are really old. $25 for army of darkness at bestbuy on bluray is insane when the dvd is $5 bucks. There is not a 5 times increase in value to justify the cost

How does it work, can you actually buy a movie from Netflix, or is this just rentals?

On a side note.
I did a bit more searching and it seems that there is some universal system underway, backed by Sony and other biggies that aims to make the Digital Purchase Universal, across platforms.

And of course there is a competing format from Disney.

Seems promising

 

[eastmen]

http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/26/sony-optiarc-garners-unwanted-attention-from-doj/


Looks like bluray may see some price drops in the future .

How does it work, can you actually buy a movie from Netflix, or is this just rentals?

Diffrent pricing tiers. The cheapest i blieve is 1 dvd out a month with unlimited streaming for $8 a month. I think it goes up to $30 a month with 4 blurays out at a time and unlimited streaming. You can stream to 5 or 6 devices though per account.
I use it on my pc , laptop and 360.

With the ps3 apprently your going to need to put in the netflix bluray or dvd disc and then use BD live to get into netflix. I'm not sure how good this will work as my experiance with BD live features have been negative mostly because of the long loading times.

But its a great option for ps3 owners , its a great service even if the movies and shows aren't up to new release status. I've caught up with so many shows by streaming them on netflix . For example , while season 2 of 30 rock was on tv , season 1 came on netflix and i watched it and loved it. I watched season 2 while season 3 was on and now i'm caught up with season 3 and since season 4 started late I was able to catch up with that. I also caught up with the office ( still don't find it funny) and I got ot watch the original UK office.


I personaly wouldn't mind seeing hadrive boxes (2-4 1-2 TB drives in the box) so you can just download what you want and then through that hook up other devices you own to watch the content or connect to the box while your out of town. I rip my blurays (yes I own all the ones on my server) and compress them to 720p for this purpose. IT was great watching my blurays and hd dvds streaming over my ps3 in NJ to Ohio last year when I visted family. I'd love to do it with my laptop or zune or i phone or what have you. But on the box just have a media service and allow downloading of high def video or streaming. Like the new xbox dash board lets oyu do. Personaly for me I'm a bit tired of having tons of boxes and discs taking room and collecting space. Its not a huge problem for my gaming collection as I have perhaps 30 games still from the cd onward era in gaming and mabye 50 pc games (though I ripped the ios for those a long time ago and have them now on a 1TB drive so I don't need the discs anymore) . The new xbox store would be great if it wasn't for the price. $15 for a 1080p movie is still to much for me although I like that I can paly them on my 306 , zune hd and laptop. But I don't know if I can play them on my psp , ps3 or my gf's black berry . So even that isn't ideal.