Report: How PlayStation Is Failing Indie Developers
- Thread starter iroboto
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Again this is an oversimplification, the complaints comes from low key indie, when Hades will release on PS4/PS5 it will have a great place on store. Basically indie is a place with very different studios, some are well established like SuperGiant and they don't have any problems. Some like Kojima productions do AAA games.
Even some studio doing their first game like Ember Labs, Kena Bride of Spirit don't have any problem. All depends the type of game you do and the quality. Tons of shovelware release everyday on all store.
High quality games don't have any problem and are featured in state of play or big Sony conference.
People don't understand indie cover very different studios, this is why some says indie for Sony is low millions budget. This is one of the complaint.
I don't know if it is. Again, most people.... Most gamers even, haven't heard of Itch much less purchased anything from them. Everyone knows of Playstation. Any game should sell better on PSN than it does on Itch.
Again the people complaining and saying their games sold better on itch are smaller indie studios. I am sure hades PSN sales will blow out itch sales. Go see the tweet are very little indie and from one article on indie said the problem of Sony indie is low million budget level.
Supergiant or title edited by Annapurna Interactive or Devolver digital aren't small indie. Fall guy and Among US studios aren't small too.
Basically "big" indie studio with multiples good titles released are ok, Studios with very good production value like Kena, Stray or Little Devil Inside or SIFU are ok. Title who doesn't catch Sony attention are in trouble and I don't say this is normal. Sony needs to improve but the clickbait article don't help.
Basically Sony has a problem of understaffed indie teams it means smaller indie are in trouble, discount structure and game visibility in PSN trouble for this type of indie.
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
With that thinking, Slay the Spire (one of the best deck builder rogue likes) probably wouldn't exist as well as many other critically acclaimed indie titles that only managed to survive due to self publishing on Steam allowing them to bring in enough funds to continue development on their titles. It only exists because they could self publish on Steam and then support development of the game through that. Crowdfunding may or may not have been able to help them get off the ground, but lots of good ideas also die in crowd funding. Not to mention crowd funding also lets through a lot of shovel ware.
Sure we have indie storefronts like Indigogo, Kongregate, Itch.io and others, but they usually don't bring in enough revenue to support larger indie projects. Yes, it does open up to shovel ware, but thanks to the review system on Steam, it's easy enough for me to filter those out. And I still have the chance to take a chance on some random no-name developer during a Steam sale if I want. I've gotten burned on some of those, but that's fine since it was so cheap combined with the fact that I've found some real gems in the process as well.
So yeah, I'm one of those that are happy with it since many of the games that I play are games that would not exist if Steam didn't allow self publishing. And not just allow it, but make it easy for developers to put their product up, provide extensive analytics, as well as market it and provide other tools for self publishing.
Regards,
SB
You mean the indie game that became mega popular on the PC and Nintendo switch will get a big push from sony a year after it came out on other platforms and proved itself ?
Is there a point to Silent_Buddha's post? I don't think anyone claims Sony is against indie developers, or have I missed something? Is Sony lacking any of the things that Steam is (supposedly) providing?
Pretty sure you can put your game on sale on Steam. As in, discount your game when you want it to be discounted. IIRC there were posts from last year on era or gamefaqs where the process was described as having to submit a request to discount your game, and it was almost always denied.
Maybe thats also a part of the reason most games make so little money on Steam now (see stats) Its just become a race to the bottom
There are sales on PSN. What (small) publishers can't do is make arbitrary discounts, they have to be part of Sony's deal packages. There are pros and cons about this, most discounts are just disguised marketing and it might be better for the consumer (and platform holder) if the standard price is lowered (instead of discounts every other week).
I don't disagree with this. But deep discounts can drive up interest in a title sometimes, or give an indie developer a quick influx of cash if need be. And in some cases, it can devalue a game if people know it will be on sale for $1 every month.
I know there are sales on PSN, but the inability to discount your games is part of the issue indies have with the platform. They have less agency on Playstation than they do on Steam. There are pros and cons, but most of those pros are in Playstation's favor. A $20 indie game makes Playstation $6 (assuming a 30% cut), if it's on sale for $10, it's only a $3 cut.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Sure, it might be better for the platform holder (arguable), but it certainly isn't better for the developer, and I don't buy that it's better for the consumer. Developer's should have the ability to sell and market their games how they'd like to. On Steam they can as long as they don't mind the 30% cut that Valve takes. And for that cut, Steam provides extensive developer support. From what the developer said in a post earlier in the thread, MS also provides extensive support for developers putting their titles on the MS store. On PS, for that 30% cut that Sony takes, you do what Sony tells you to do and you do it how they tell you to do it. And if that means you can't effectively market your game so that it sells well, well tough luck.
From what developers have said, Nintendo are also very indie developer friendly and next to Steam are one of the places that Indie developers actually enjoy releasing their titles.
Developer support and enablement are also one of the reasons that despite EGS only taking a 12% cut, most indie developers still prefer the Steam store. It's just easier to put your titles up for sale (including choosing how to package your titles and how you want patches for your title to be handled), easier to market your titles, easier to communicate with the people that buy or might buy your game, more extensive analytics, and you get to choose how and when your title goes on sale. As well, despite it still very much being a work in progress, Steam's backend of trying to display indie titles to people on the front pages based on what it thinks users like to play has increased visibility of indie titles to consumers. Of course, it's not perfect but it's much better now than it was 1-2 years ago, so it's obviously constantly being improved. I'd say it's at least mostly decent now (at least in my experience) versus 1-2 years ago when it was very hit or miss.
It's the difference between a Storefront that wants to help you sell your game (Steam) and one that just wants a cut of your game sales and nothing else (PS Store and EGS).
Regards,
SB
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There are a lot of indie games that have sold really well on the PS Store. Sony does not allow certain marketing tactics, but there are many other to choose.
I think you are conflating developer and publisher here. I do not think that anyone is claiming that Sony is not developer friendly, the claim is that Sony is not friendly to small ("indie") publishers.
Would ppl prefer the way MS is going with the new Windows store, just had a scathing review read here
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...builds-show-microsoft-has-lots-of-work-ahead/
seems a lose/lose situation (devs/users) the only possible winners are maybe shovelware creators
@iroboto you say youre making a title do you like this method or would you prefer a more higher quality curated store?
Sony are not doing a good job, if true they should not be promoting their own games above others, i.e. level playing field, and should give publishers/devs more sales metrics/data (I'm not sure about allowing the dev to set sales whenever they want as this can lead to abuse, but sure let the dev set base price)
but I do prefer something how steam used to be before they opened it up to the crap, or how mobile app stores are today
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...builds-show-microsoft-has-lots-of-work-ahead/
basically what I've been saying throughout this thread
seems a lose/lose situation (devs/users) the only possible winners are maybe shovelware creators
@iroboto you say youre making a title do you like this method or would you prefer a more higher quality curated store?
Sony are not doing a good job, if true they should not be promoting their own games above others, i.e. level playing field, and should give publishers/devs more sales metrics/data (I'm not sure about allowing the dev to set sales whenever they want as this can lead to abuse, but sure let the dev set base price)
but I do prefer something how steam used to be before they opened it up to the crap, or how mobile app stores are today
Seems to me being part of a big sale is better - more chance to be spotted as more people will go in looking for a deal?
It is Sony’s store and a lucrative market (as sales figures and profit margins from the big companies show us). Would be interesting to see some indie sales figures across the various formats.
I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s the admission price of their market place. You don’t have to be on it if you don’t like it. I guess the pros outweigh the cons?
Not sure where I stand. I don’t think my game will come to console lol. If it finishes it that would be lucky enough. These are all hobby projects for me; I’m still looking into the IQ analysis type work for DF.
but overall my experience has been that indies shouldn’t go into the business expecting to get rich. So if you’re going to risk it all to be an indie; just given what is written in this thread; get help promoting your product (and make way less via a publisher) or spending a lot of your earned cash to do it.
The no risk, all reward days are all done. The 25K to get on store seems fairly normal to me. But the lack of support around programming, documentation, policies, languages etc. Can be rather overwhelming for a self published indie developers.
Sony was really hands off for the product and only did the bare minimum to get the title through. A lot of heavy lifting was done by the publisher to support me during development. It doesn’t sound like much has changed. But without being in the thick of it; it’s hard to say. I lack the experience to understand the pain here
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Any app from the windows store can be uninstalled by right clicking on the icon or tile in the start menu also, unless that's changed in 11. The fact they had trouble finding where to uninstall an app (hint: Under "Apps and Features") is concerning.
For me, this whole thing is about communication and agency. Assuming the comments made by indies is true, Sony has an issue with communication, both in documentation and returning direct contacts. And developers have less control over their pricing and marketing than they would on other platforms.
