rumblings of something huge going on with SEGA

[Ty]

So you propose consumers buy and play the same old DC games all over again?

Well I'm NOT the one arguing that a portable DC would sell. My argument is centered around something much more fundamental and therefore the issue of the actual medium for games is irrelevant.

No one will buy a $150-$200 portable to play old DC games.

I totally agree with you. The problem is two fold with regards to the library of games a portable DC would have. 1> the current crop of games on DC aren't that great (in number at least) for general consumption, and 2> developers aren't likely to sign up to develop for Sega anytime soon either so no new games as well.

Why couldn't it be $100?

NOW we're getting down to the detailed problems a portable DC would face. Anyhow even at a 100 bucks I think the GBA is far more appealing to the average consumer. Why? Because the games are what makes the console, not the other way around and imo, NO ONE would really develop for a portable DC.

 

[Sonic]

godshand, why would you assume I'm a fraud? Do you think any reasonable minded person would just shell out confident information that will threaten their job?

 

[Qroach]

Well I'm glad you responded to Godsand, because I would have been way more rude to him ;0

 

[Brimstone]

Why couldn't it be $100? DC tech is 6 years old now, and MBX is pretty much a portable neon250.... dc I think was down to $50 breaking even by the end of its life(2002), in 2005 they could probably make dc for sub $20 and without the gd drive the dc would have already been almost handheld size.(at least as portable as a nomad)

I need to smoke some of that wacky sh*t you've been smokin...

OTOH MS's upcoming iPod killer could be a good candidate for MBX and games from SEGA.

Now that is very intresting speculation. A SEGA branded iPod style device might go over well in the Japanese and European markets. There is some potential synergy between Microsoft and SEGA in this area, but turning that into profit would be a challenge.

 

[cthellis42]

godshand, why would you assume I'm a fraud? Do you think any reasonable minded person would just shell out confident information that will threaten their job?

It's because in real life you look nothing like a blue hedgehog!

 

[Lazy8s]

An new MBX portable wouldn't have to be Dreamcast-compatible, just Dreamcast-friendly. Of course developers would be expected to provide new content, yet the familiar technological base would allow developers to capitalize on specific expertise and certain code and assets from prior DC development.

Regarding cost, doesn't the MBX go for something like $15 in quantities of 10,000?

Ty:

One of the foundational strengths any platform can be measured with (portable or not) is access to an existing library of games. Portable DC vs. portable PS2 (PSP) is a laughable contest in this regard.

The PSP is not at all a portable PS2 and doesn't suddenly inherit the PS2's library. The PSP is a custom console and would hypothetically be competing against another custom - yet DC friendly - MBX console, and both systems would have to show their worth through the strength of new games or adaptations made for them.

 

[Ty]

yet the familiar technological base would allow developers to capitalize on specific expertise and certain code and assets from prior DC development.

All two of them?. Face the music. (IMO) NO ONE is going to develop for a portable DC. They didn't even develop for the home version when it had a decent headstart for the current gen of consoles. Now it would be going up against a GBA (much better library of games) and the PSP (better marketing AND library).

Regarding cost, doesn't the MBX go for something like $15 in quantities of 10,000?

Is that licensing or does that include total cost to fab the chips as well?

The PSP is not at all a portable PS2 and doesn't suddenly inherit the PS2's library.

The PSP doesn't have to automatically inherit PS2 games. It likely will automatically inherit developer support for it though which includes porting from the prodigious PS2 library.

The PSP is a custom console and would hypothetically be competing against another custom - yet DC friendly - MBX console,

Which no one really developed for in the first place. I'm not sure why you're trying to equate "DC friendly" with automatic dev support for the MBX when there was a huge lack of dev support for the home version of the DC to begin with.

and both systems would have to show their worth through the strength of new games or adaptations made for them.

The one statement I agree with and which is why imo, the PSP would be a far, far better position than a portable DC.

Naturally my statements above are very PSP price point sensitive.

Oh, and I think the PSP is fairly close to a PS2 even though Sony is "heavily discouraging" streaming data off of the UMD.

 

[Farid]

Oh, and I think the PSP is fairly close to a PS2 even though Sony is "heavily discouraging" streaming data off of the UMD.

That's because it's a handheld, and power consumption is one of the primary challenge. Having the Umd disc rotating (mechanical parts consume more energy) full speed all the time is not the best scenario for a handheld especially the first games available on the system.
If they drain the battery fast, the word will spread that PsP autonomy "sucks"!
I'm sure in the future we'll get games on Psp that rely heavily on Streaming.

 

[Lazy8s]

Ty:

All two of them?

With the notable exceptions of SquareEnix and EA, DC had industry-wide support. That's hundreds of developers with working experience and code/assets. I'm not comparing them to anything... just saying it's not insubstantial.

(IMO) NO ONE is going to develop for a portable DC.

Development for a system isn't determined on the basis of its technology. The console manufacturer would obviously need to provide a tempting market regardless of what technology they selected. The argument is only that a DC-friendly, new MBX portable would make a good technological base - no specific manufacturer implied, no connection to DC implied other than its familiar dev tech.

Oh, and I think the PSP is fairly close to a PS2

There isn't nearly as much familiarity between PS2 and PSP to benefit from as there is between those succeeding generations of PowerVR products (not that an MBX is a PowerVR2CLX, Neon 250, Kyro, or any other chip in particular).

 

[assen]

The PSP doesn't have to automatically inherit PS2 games. It likely will automatically inherit developer support for it though which includes porting from the prodigious PS2 library.

Yeah, I'm sure porting games squeezed with a shoehorn to fit in the 32 MB of main RAM of the PS2 to the generous 8 MB of the PSP will be a walk in the park for the 1337 macho down-to-the-metal PS2 developers.

And that "curved surfaces" automagically solve all memory problems.

And that, even when ports happen, they will be some magical, "good" ports, unlike the "bad" PC <--> Xbox ports that are so often ridiculed here.

 

[Farid]

Yeah, I'm sure porting games squeezed with a shoehorn to fit in the 32 MB of main RAM of the PS2 to the generous 8 MB of the PSP will be a walk in the park for the 1337 macho down-to-the-metal PS2 developers.

And that "curved surfaces" automagically solve all memory problems.

PSP, now, have 32MB of ram (we still not sure if it's all edram, or a mix between external ram + edram)

 

[Fox5]

PSP probably has texture compression which the ps2 didn't have, and maybe other bandwidth saving techniques.
And dreamcast had fairly large 3rd party support, I believe only slightly less than what the xbox has...at least on par with gamecube.

 

[Teasy]

No less difficult than to say the same thing over and over. Very little difference in the end by comparing IMRs and saying, "If a TBR were at the same Mhz as an IMR, the TBR would stomp all over it". The problem lies with the assumptions (e.g. that a TBR could be clocked at the same Mhz in the first place). I'm just getting tired of NOT seeing something.

What does this have to do with TBR vs IMR? I really wish you'd get that chip off you're shoulder. We're not talking about TBR vs IMR, we're talking about the fact that MBX is a great mobile chip. Which is shown by the sheer number, and quality, of its licensee's so far. Its easily the leading new mobile chip on the market. Therefore MBX could be the basis for an extremely good handheld console, simple as that.

Oh and if your implying that I go around posting about how this or that future TBR will be so much faster then this or that future IMR then your living in the past.

 

[Ty]

To Vysez:

Heh, I think we all know why.

With the notable exceptions of SquareEnix and EA, DC had industry-wide support. That's hundreds of developers with working experience and code/assets. I'm not comparing them to anything... just saying it's not insubstantial.

Define "support". Are you trying to equate the "support" an average developer gave the DC back then with the "support" an average developer currently gives the PS2? Heck, the DC was the first current gen console I got (then GCN then XBox but no PS2 yet) and even I see that the DC had a dearth of titles on it. I mean, c'mon now the PS2 is by far the leader when it comes to industry support and the DC wasn't.

The argument is only that a DC-friendly, new MBX portable would make a good technological base - no specific manufacturer implied, no connection to DC implied other than its familiar dev tech.

No, that's not the argument. The argument is that

"If sega could produce a dreamcast portable and launch it with most of the sega dreamcast library including shenmue i think it would sell well . Esp if they can launch at half the price of the psp".

Which I disagree with (that it would sell well because I don't think it would get much Dev support).

I have no argument that a DC portable would be a good technological base.

There isn't nearly as much familiarity between PS2 and PSP to benefit from as there is between those succeeding generations of PowerVR products (not that an MBX is a PowerVR2CLX, Neon 250, Kyro, or any other chip in particular).

Care to prove back this up with some literature?

Yeah, I'm sure porting games squeezed with a shoehorn to fit in the 32 MB of main RAM of the PS2 to the generous 8 MB of the PSP will be a walk in the park for the 1337 macho down-to-the-metal PS2 developers.

Where have you been? It's been mentioned many times that the RAM has gone up significantly and that it's much more unified (I think this last part has been mentioned publically).

And that "curved surfaces" automagically solve all memory problems.

I never claimed that so if you wish to add to the discussion try to remain on tract. Thanks.

And that, even when ports happen, they will be some magical, "good" ports, unlike the "bad" PC <--> Xbox ports that are so often ridiculed here.

See above.

Teasy: You missed the point entirely as my statement was only an example of what we've heard constantly droning on and on. I'm a guy who prefers results. And yes, I think a MBX portable would be GREAT technology (see my statement above). I just don't think it would sell. Capiche?

Oh, and I'll knock the chip off my shoulder if you pull that stick outta your....

 

[Shogmaster]

Ty, The fact of the matter is, even though neither would have games that are instantly port ready from their respective sources, MBX derived portable would be more port friendly from DC library than PSP from PS2 library since MBX architecture is closer to the CLX than the PSP GPU cores is to the GS.

Besides, do you really believe just because it has Sony branding on it, a $250~300 portable will automatically get better dev support than a $125~$150 one that has Sega branding on it? Keep in mind that both are starting with market share of big fat zippo.

If there is such a thing as this "portable DC", and if it launched at the same time or before the PSP, and if it launches with MSRP of $150 or less, and if it launches with several key "improved/expanded" ports from DC library (Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Q3 Arena, Jet Set Radio, NFL 2kX, NBA 2kX, DoA, Virtua Tennis), I think PSP launch would be in a lot of troble.

 

[Farid]

...and if it launches with several key "improved/expanded" ports from DC library (Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Q3 Arena, Jet Set Radio, NFL 2kX, NBA 2kX, DoA, Virtua Tennis), I think PSP launch would be in a lot of troble.

Those game were already on DC when PS2 was "rocking" with games such as Ridge racer V, Evergrace, Orphen, Fantavision, etc...
We all know how the story finished, that's history.
Playstation brand is strong, very strong, underestimate it is a wrong move if you ask me...

 

[Fox5]

Ty, The fact of the matter is, even though neither would have games that are instantly port ready from their respective sources, MBX derived portable would be more port friendly from DC library than PSP from PS2 library since MBX architecture is closer to the CLX than the PSP GPU cores is to the GS.

Besides, do you really believe just because it has Sony branding on it, a $250~300 portable will automatically get better dev support than a $125~$150 one that has Sega branding on it? Keep in mind that both are starting with market share of big fat zippo.

If there is such a thing as this "portable DC", and if it launched at the same time or before the PSP, and if it launches with MSRP of $150 or less, and if it launches with several key "improved/expanded" ports from DC library (Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Q3 Arena, Jet Set Radio, NFL 2kX, NBA 2kX, DoA, Virtua Tennis), I think PSP launch would be in a lot of troble.

If I was a publisher, I don't know if I'd ever trust sega again. They let people down too many times. Companies were a little wary of dreamcast after sega cd, 32x, and saturn, and dreamcast proved that sega would just keep its bad habits up, how many publishers would expect a sega portable to be around 2 years from launch and healthy?

 

[Shogmaster]

...and if it launches with several key "improved/expanded" ports from DC library (Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Q3 Arena, Jet Set Radio, NFL 2kX, NBA 2kX, DoA, Virtua Tennis), I think PSP launch would be in a lot of troble.

Those game were already on DC when PS2 was "rocking" with games such as Ridge racer V, Evergrace, Orphen, Fantavision, etc...
We all know how the story finished, that's history.
Playstation brand is strong, very strong, underestimate it is a wrong move if you ask me...

Key difference here is that PS2 was also sold as a DVD player, and it was backwards compatable to PSOne. No such luck for PSP, although I suppose buying pre-packaged movies on UMDs might entice some braindead people.

The key is, PSP is starting from scratch here, and with a high price tag and not much other uses. It's vulnerable to someone coming in with a more focused and cheaper product.

 

[Shogmaster]

Ty, The fact of the matter is, even though neither would have games that are instantly port ready from their respective sources, MBX derived portable would be more port friendly from DC library than PSP from PS2 library since MBX architecture is closer to the CLX than the PSP GPU cores is to the GS.

Besides, do you really believe just because it has Sony branding on it, a $250~300 portable will automatically get better dev support than a $125~$150 one that has Sega branding on it? Keep in mind that both are starting with market share of big fat zippo.

If there is such a thing as this "portable DC", and if it launched at the same time or before the PSP, and if it launches with MSRP of $150 or less, and if it launches with several key "improved/expanded" ports from DC library (Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Q3 Arena, Jet Set Radio, NFL 2kX, NBA 2kX, DoA, Virtua Tennis), I think PSP launch would be in a lot of troble.

If I was a publisher, I don't know if I'd ever trust sega again. They let people down too many times. Companies were a little wary of dreamcast after sega cd, 32x, and saturn, and dreamcast proved that sega would just keep its bad habits up, how many publishers would expect a sega portable to be around 2 years from launch and healthy?

It's not a marriage. Just a business relationship. Investment involved in publishing on PSP or a DC portable would involve calculating the the market share and costs in publishing that one game. It's not like you are commited for the long haul. You do it game by game, case by case.

If 6 months after the launch, PSP has sold 1 million and DC portable has sold 3 due to cost difference, how would YOU decide if you were a publisher? PSP just because it's a Sony?

 

[Ty]

Ty, The fact of the matter is, even though neither would have games that are instantly port ready from their respective sources, MBX derived portable would be more port friendly from DC library than PSP from PS2 library since MBX architecture is closer to the CLX than the PSP GPU cores is to the GS.

Ok. Let's go with your assumption that a MBX portable would be "more port friendly" (easier to port). That still does not imply that dev teams would be willing to undertake such a task. They pretty much abandoned the DC even though it was first out of the gate for the current gen of consoles. Why would they jump aboard this time? They would need to believe that it would sell (my whole argument centers around this) and I simply do not believe it would. Consumers are fickle, sure (so the future is not certain), but we all know who they picked between Sega and Sony, don't we? Heck, it seems they and developers picked Sony long before the PS2 even came out.

Besides, do you really believe just because it has Sony branding on it, a $250~300 portable will automatically get better dev support than a $125~$150 one that has Sega branding on it?

As a matter of fact I do. And what proof do you have that a MBX portable would be ~$125 retail? I simply do not believe right now that Sega has that much consumer mindshare to successfully field a console. And to be honest it's a shame because they probably are one of my favorite developers.

Keep in mind that both are starting with market share of big fat zippo.

Yes but not in terms of consumer or developer mindshare. Here is where Sony is leaps and bounds beyond Sega. Also don't forget that the DC had a far greater marketshare of the current gen of consoles (100% because they were the only one) but the PS2 still stomped all over it when it came out.

If there is such a thing as this "portable DC", and if it launched at the same time or before the PSP, and if it launches with MSRP of $150 or less, and if it launches with several key "improved/expanded" ports from DC library (Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Q3 Arena, Jet Set Radio, NFL 2kX, NBA 2kX, DoA, Virtua Tennis), I think PSP launch would be in a lot of troble.

Many assumptions there, eh? Price point, developer support, timing, marketing, etc. Good luck on all of them! Btw I thought Sega doesn't use "2k" anymore since they moved to ESPN sports.

If 6 months after the launch, PSP has sold 1 million and DC portable has sold 3 due to cost difference, how would YOU decide if you were a publisher? PSP just because it's a Sony?

If a DC portable only sold 3 than I think we've proven our point. Kidding aside, I think you're guilty of putting the horse before the cart. How would the DC portable sell that much if consumers don't believe in it in the first place? How does Sega gain back consumer confidence? By seeing developers committed to it. How do developers gain confidence in Sega's portable? By seeing that Sega is committed to it, has a game plan, and has the bank roll to see it through. None of these occured with the DC and that's why imo, it died.


Edited to combine replies.