Revolution and HD: Do your part.

PC-Engine said:
I really feel for you guys not living in America. Over here you can get a nice 30" widescreen flat CRT HDTV with HDMI inputs for less than $600. :oops:

I actually bought a 27" 4:3 Samsung HDTV with built in HDTV Tuner (Get HDTV Signals from the air, from CBS NBC and other public broadcasting channels)...it also nativley supports 720p. :p .....all the HDTV naysayer need to watch a basketball game in HDTV and come back later :eek:
 
Teasy said:
I just had a thought about this whole no HDTV thing. What if instead of HDTV Nintendo are going to have a high level of AA forced on all Revolution games?

hm... well supposing there is no tiling, only 480p 4x FSAA would fit inside 12MB eDRAM (according to Dave's table in the Xenos article). 6xAA would be 14.1MB.
 
Acert93 said:
Shifty Geezer said:
Does that really affect Nintendo now though? It seems to me their next gen plan is to be bought alongside PS3 and/or XB360
Is it though? Honest question. I have not heard that from Nintendo. What I have heard is they think MS/Sony are going the wrong direction, but I have not heard them say, "We are a low cost alternative that is to be purchased alongside our competition, which is not really our competition".
They haven't given a direct quote as such, but it's certainly the impression *I* get, which may be off. Certainly they want to appeal to the masses and believe a different approach is needed to do this, and they're not going toe-to-toe with Sony and MS, which suggests whatever games you get on XB360/PS3, you'll get a diffrent sort of game on Revolution. For Halo, GTA, etc., you'll need to own an XB360/PS3. For 'Revolutionary controlled Mario snail farm simluator' ( :? ) or whatever unique games Ninty are going to offer, you'll need Revolution. To enjoy both, you'll need both, and neither one will cover all games it seems.

How many console gamers are going to buy a console and then pay money to play old games like Mario 64--especially if they already have it?

We do need to be realistic though. Will casual consumers poney up for 16bit and 32bit era games when they can have Killzone2? Halo 3? Tekken 5? Next Gen Madden?
I've no idea. I wouldn't, but plenty here seemed interested. I think it's got quite a bit of appeal for hardcore gamers who grew up on Ninty, which might be enough to get 'established'.

Will it be enough to turn around the opposite momentum.
Again, I don't think it has to. Nintendo have got by fine this generation, being nicely profitable. There's no NEED to get back to number one slot, and no need to stem the competitor's momentum as long as Revolution still sells enough games to make Nintendo money.

Even more importantly: If it is viewed as a 2nd console, it will see even LESS 3rd party support. Why port a game when gamers already have another console?
I see that as a big problem.
Which actually supports the idea it'll be asecond console. You won't get Madden and PES for Revolution - only Nintendo's own games. But to play those excellent games you HAVE to get a Revolution.

And the lack of 3rd party support will directly affect primary sales.
I disagree. Nintendo are placing their eggs in the concept of Revolution controls. Gameplay will be Revolutionary on their system whether third parties develop for it or not, because Nintendo supply the games. If you want to play Nintendogs, you need a DS, regardless of whether 3rd parties will support the platform or not. If Nintendo can get enough 'Revolutionary' games on Revolution, no matter who writes them, people will want to buy it to play those games.

And trying to be the "other" console is an unproven tactic.
True, but it also seems like a logical, viable tactic to me. I could be wrong, but I can see Nintendo tackling the market from a completely different perspective. Stop supplying the same as current gaming does, with it's known quantity of gamers, and instead appeal to a new audience who likes short games, own SDTV and will be impressed by AA'd, HDR imaging, and who love the new Revolutionary controller Nintendo have (if they ever settle on what is!). If I were CEO it might be a tactic I'd consider. Mobile phone games are becoming a big market, very profitable for the limited amount of investment needed due to technical constraints of the platform, and internet games seem to be growing too. Cut off the old world, hard-core gamers, and maybe there is a new world of bright, easily pleased gamers out there to sell too? :oops:
 
Teasy said:
I just had a thought about this whole no HDTV thing. What if instead of HDTV Nintendo are going to have a high level of AA forced on all Revolution games? That would explain why they will not support HDTV at all because HDTV games wouldn't run with this very high level of AA. Also using really good AA will make games look better for the majority of consumers (with normal TV's) rather then for the minority (HDTV owners).

Exactly and as I already said EDTV (852x480) with very good AA would make this whole HD thing moot. I just hope the visuals in the form of special effects, modeling, animation, physics etc will be on par with what MS and SONY offers. HD is nice, but it's not a make or break feature for most people. Nintendo just needs to deliver visual effects to convince the skeptics that HD is not required to get CGI like visuals.

With Rare, SK, and Factor5 no longer close to Nintendo I think we have definately seen a downturn in the number of quality games.

Even though I liked the Rare, SK, and F5 games they only total 5 out of the 500+ game library granted having those games exclusive to GCN was a good thing for Nintendo.
 
The contrast I see is the N64 had some decent 3rd party / 2nd party titles, even toward the end. This Spring, and even last fall, were really weak for Nintendo. Fall 2003 was just EXCELLENT. Their big game in 2004 was a refitted Metroid that was excellent but did not appeal very widely. Sadly RE4 missed the holidays.

If we do a comparison between N64 and GC's third party support 4 years into their life the difference is pretty large to be honest. N64 - 27 third party titles. GC - 90 third party titles.

True, but developer relationships, market perception, and mementum do play varying roles.

I agree, still if Nintendo could take a third party disaster like N64 and get at least double the support with GC despite not doing that many things right (from a third party point of view) then who's to say Revolutions support will be bad?

While I agree each gen is a new start to a degree, I am not hearing much about 3rd party support.

No, but then we're not hearing much of anything at this point :) We've heard some signals of intent to support the console from Square-Enix (who promised strong support) and a few others. Lets wait and see what we hear when the console is fully unvield.
 
hm... well supposing there is no tiling, only 480p 4x FSAA would fit inside 12MB eDRAM (according to Dave's table in the Xenos article). 6xAA would be 14.1MB.

I'm not too in the know about this tilling feature in the Xenos chip. I suppose I should read that article :) But is there any real reason why it shouldn't be including in the Hollywood GPU?
 
Do my part?...how stupid is that? If I think HD is that important, how about I just buy a different product? What do I care who provides what I want as a consumer? Very fanboyish heh.
 
Because the only need for it is if you intend to support HD, and Nintendo doesn't!

HD support isn't the only reason for this kind of technique. If you read the post I'm replying to we're talking about AA and the ability to fit a certain resolution and level of AA in embedded ram.
 
*IF* Revolution comes with as much eDRAM as rumoured, it's enough to fit AA on an SDTV frame buffer without needing to tile. As such there is no need to add tiled rendering. The only reason for Nintendo to add tiled rendering is if they haven't enough eDRAM to fir the framebuffer data they need for the target resolution they want to render to.

So asked...
But is there any real reason why it shouldn't be including in the Hollywood GPU?
Yes, because it's an unneccesary feature for Nintendo's targets and as such a waste of money and resources.
 
Shifty, read the whole conversation (which is very short anyway) not just my last reply. I'm talking about using more then a normal level of anti aliasing (2 or 4 like 360 supports). Specifically using a high level of anti aliasing (8x at least) as a more mass market alternative to HDTV resolutions.
 
Teasy said:
Shifty, try reading the whole conversation and not just my reply. I'm talking about using more then a normal level of anti aliasing. Specifically using a very high level of anti aliasing as a moremass market alternative to HDTV resolutions.
Your suggesting using tile-based rendering for say 16x AA? Though I'd say technically feasible, I'm not sure where this would put Nintendo's no-HD stance. If they can render to those AA levels, they can render to less AA on HDTV for little extra cost I'd have thought (HDTV output). In which case why not provide the option like PS3 theoretically does?
 
My thinking was that perhaps Nintendo wanted a high level of AA as standard. So that every game supports either 8 or 16x AA. Developers wouldn't have to spend extra making their games HDTV compliant and everyone with a normal TV would see the benefit.

Or will HDTV games automatically get a anti aliasing effect when played on a normal TV? I'm really not sure about how HDTV games work when being played on a normal TV.
 
I'm assuming HD output on XB360 for example will be downsampled for SDTV, providing a level of supersampled AA. I don't 360 has any capacity to render LOWER than 720p and there'd be no advantage, unless they provided higher AA sampling rates as SD resolution.
 
My thinking was that perhaps Nintendo wanted a high level of AA as standard. So that every game supports either 8 or 16x AA. Developers wouldn't have to spend extra making their games HDTV compliant and everyone with a normal TV would see the benefit

See the only problem with that Teasy is that you're assuming that Nintendo will spend big money to get that kind of level of 8 or 16x AA. With specs I can't even see that happening. Would that make the GPU cost way more?
 
I'm assuming HD output on XB360 for example will be downsampled for SDTV, providing a level of supersampled AA

Possibly, the question is would 1280x720 4xFSAA dropped to 640x480 look as good as 640x480 with 12x FSAA on a normal TV? (geniune question, I don't know). It all depends on how 360 downsamples a HDTV game to a normal TV I suppose.
 
Teasy said:
I'm assuming HD output on XB360 for example will be downsampled for SDTV, providing a level of supersampled AA

Possibly, the question is would 1280x720 4xFSAA dropped to 640x480 look as good as 640x480 with 12x FSAA on a normal TV? (geniune question, I don't know). It all depends on how 360 downsamples a HDTV game to a normal TV I suppose.

It sounds like you are trying to justify a lack of HD with AA, when in reality, I think Nintendo just isn't focusing on graphics at all this time around. Rather they are focusing on user interface technology. Whether or not the two should be mutually exclusive, from Nintendo's statements, it seems they think they are. I'm not expecting much from them at all in terms of horsepower. From what they've said, it will probably be more powerful than gamecube, will fit into a small form factor, and consume a small amount of power.
 
Acert93 said:
We do need to be realistic though. Will casual consumers poney up for 16bit and 32bit era games when they can have Killzone2? Halo 3? Tekken 5? Next Gen Madden?
Heck, why wait until NEXT gen for Tekken 5? ;)

(I'll join in the convo later... not enough time now.)
 
See the only problem with that Teasy is that you're assuming that Nintendo will spend big money to get that kind of level of 8 or 16x AA.

To be clear I'm not assuming that since I'm only throwing a possible idea out there and not saying that I think the idea is correct. But yes that's something to consider.

Still most expected Revolution to support HDTV resolutions until Nintendo said it wouldn't connect to HDTV's. So I don't think its too outlandish to suggest it could support at least 8x FSAA at 640x480 (720p 4xFSAA requires 33% more resources).
 
Back
Top