New engine sounds good. The question to ask is whether it’s new new or just new to you, and whether you’d trust then to install it correctly given the water and oil problems (while I guess the poor headgasket fit would account for both, how hard is it to check)?
Renegade repair thread
- Thread starter digitalwanderer
- Start date
My educated guess would be the dealer will drop in a factory-new engine, because it's cheaper.
First consider just the labor costs: a person or two removes the current (broken) engine, places it on an engine stand, fully disassembles it, has to use various tools to validate every clearance and tolerance of every moving part, then has to take the necessary parts off to be machined into their intended shape and manageable size (eg crank mains are machined down by two and a half thousandths to remove some minor scoring, block is decked by five thousandths to return it to flat and square, cylinder head is shaved three thousandths for the same.) Then that person has to fully reassemble everything with new parts and put it back in the engine bay. It's easily an entire week of labor to fully remove, properly rebuild, and then reinstall an engine.
Then consider the unknowns and soft costs: is there something physically wrong with this block and/or cylinder head which caused the problem? Maybe one of the head bolt bores is just a few thousandths too shallow, so when the bolt is tightened, it's bottomed out against the block instead of actually clamping the head down. Ya just went through all that labor and all those parts just to have the problem come right back in a few more months? What if the person doing the work mis-measured something and ends up causing a completely unrelated problem? What if the bearing shells came in a half-thousandth too small, the tech didn't validate, and now it doesn't oil properly because the clearance is too tight, which then causes it to chew up a crank main journal and grenades the bottom end of the motor? Also consider the entire dealership repair shop is functionally down one entire employee while the rebuild is going, so that's one less person contributing to billable hours on oil changes, tire rotations, other repairs or maintenance items which would be generating revenue. And that dead car, without a power train or likely any front tires, is soaking up a valuable lift and garage spot which further causes problems with getting other cars in and out to make money.
A new motor from the factory has a high probability of being as good as it's ever gonna be and is unquestionably warrantable for any potential future issues. Order the crate motor from the Stellantis line, leave the impaired car out in the parking lot where it isn't blocking a garage spot or lift. When the new motor arrives, slot it into someone's calendar and then only spend two days doing the R&R and be done with it. Send the questionable engine off to a 3rd party independent shop who buys questionable engines for one third price, remans them, and sells them for twice what they paid. It's still cheaper than new, and it's done by someone who isn't in a rush to get the job out the door.
Nothing stops the dealer from buying such a reman'd engine from such a 3rd party, except for the potential liability of it breaking again. I doubt it would be worth the headache for the minor cost savings, just buy the new motor and be done. However, if this car were out of warranty, you're absolutely right in thinking a dealer may offer both as possible solutions...
First consider just the labor costs: a person or two removes the current (broken) engine, places it on an engine stand, fully disassembles it, has to use various tools to validate every clearance and tolerance of every moving part, then has to take the necessary parts off to be machined into their intended shape and manageable size (eg crank mains are machined down by two and a half thousandths to remove some minor scoring, block is decked by five thousandths to return it to flat and square, cylinder head is shaved three thousandths for the same.) Then that person has to fully reassemble everything with new parts and put it back in the engine bay. It's easily an entire week of labor to fully remove, properly rebuild, and then reinstall an engine.
Then consider the unknowns and soft costs: is there something physically wrong with this block and/or cylinder head which caused the problem? Maybe one of the head bolt bores is just a few thousandths too shallow, so when the bolt is tightened, it's bottomed out against the block instead of actually clamping the head down. Ya just went through all that labor and all those parts just to have the problem come right back in a few more months? What if the person doing the work mis-measured something and ends up causing a completely unrelated problem? What if the bearing shells came in a half-thousandth too small, the tech didn't validate, and now it doesn't oil properly because the clearance is too tight, which then causes it to chew up a crank main journal and grenades the bottom end of the motor? Also consider the entire dealership repair shop is functionally down one entire employee while the rebuild is going, so that's one less person contributing to billable hours on oil changes, tire rotations, other repairs or maintenance items which would be generating revenue. And that dead car, without a power train or likely any front tires, is soaking up a valuable lift and garage spot which further causes problems with getting other cars in and out to make money.
A new motor from the factory has a high probability of being as good as it's ever gonna be and is unquestionably warrantable for any potential future issues. Order the crate motor from the Stellantis line, leave the impaired car out in the parking lot where it isn't blocking a garage spot or lift. When the new motor arrives, slot it into someone's calendar and then only spend two days doing the R&R and be done with it. Send the questionable engine off to a 3rd party independent shop who buys questionable engines for one third price, remans them, and sells them for twice what they paid. It's still cheaper than new, and it's done by someone who isn't in a rush to get the job out the door.
Nothing stops the dealer from buying such a reman'd engine from such a 3rd party, except for the potential liability of it breaking again. I doubt it would be worth the headache for the minor cost savings, just buy the new motor and be done. However, if this car were out of warranty, you're absolutely right in thinking a dealer may offer both as possible solutions...
Talked to the manager today and they offered us $17,500 in trade-in value towards a new vehicle. I have no clue if that's just they'll take $17,500 off whatever we want there or if it's $17,500 and we have to pay off the Renegade. Wife is looking at vehicles there now and is dealing with it and I'm glad to let her after she blew up at me this morning. <grump old man mode ACTIVATED!>
If it's a flatout $17,500 off we'll probably consider it, if they try and nickle and dime us down we'll just tell them we want the Renegade fixed and have them keep dumping money in to that.
Sorry I had a bad morning between dealing with the dealership, Stellantis, and my wife with none of them giving me happy answers. I'mma gonna chill and hope the situation improves.
If it's a flatout $17,500 off we'll probably consider it, if they try and nickle and dime us down we'll just tell them we want the Renegade fixed and have them keep dumping money in to that.
Sorry I had a bad morning between dealing with the dealership, Stellantis, and my wife with none of them giving me happy answers. I'mma gonna chill and hope the situation improves.
Yay! My wife called the dealer yesterday to explain that offering us a couple of hundred dollars less than what we owe on the Renegade with our current 0% loan to give them money to get financing at 8% seems insulting and insane and we aren't at all interested. She told 'em to go ahead and get Renny a new engine and to call and let us know an estimate for it to be ready.
I got an e-mail this morning from one of their salesmen doing a cheery follow up to let us know they're going to help us find the vehicle we love, I asked 'em if our Renegade that's been there for 8 months is ready yet because there ain't no way we're going to accept the rip-off they offered us.
Then I wrote a letter to Stellantis detailing what happened and asking them to open a STAR case on the Renegade so hopefully someone competent could fix it and to also ask them why the dealer would offer us such a shitty deal if they were trying to make things right. Waiting now for any replies, I'll post 'em up if any are interesting.
I got an e-mail this morning from one of their salesmen doing a cheery follow up to let us know they're going to help us find the vehicle we love, I asked 'em if our Renegade that's been there for 8 months is ready yet because there ain't no way we're going to accept the rip-off they offered us.
Then I wrote a letter to Stellantis detailing what happened and asking them to open a STAR case on the Renegade so hopefully someone competent could fix it and to also ask them why the dealer would offer us such a shitty deal if they were trying to make things right. Waiting now for any replies, I'll post 'em up if any are interesting.
Give 'em hell, Digi.
And then don't buy another Jeep ever again.
And then don't buy another Jeep ever again.
We got two, that's enough! We'll get them both back eventually.
I'll be starting a new thread hopefully soon about the 2000 Cabrio rebuild, it's time to get my cheap ragtop running! That's one I genuinely like and enjoy working on. All it needs is a little TLC on the engine since it's been sitting so long, a new top, and either a total interior detailing or else find a donor car and steal the seats and some other bits from it.
I'm tired of playing with Jeeps, Jeep dealerships, and Stellantis. I'm gonna stick with my car and fix up my $20 Cabrio and be happy with that.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Now if only Digi's wife didn't want another Jeep.
Hmmm, hey Digi, did this whole ordeal finally cure your wife of wanting another Jeep?
Regards,
SB
Nope, not in the slightest. It's a sickness of the brain I tells ya!Hmmm, hey Digi, did this whole ordeal finally cure your wife of wanting another Jeep?
Still waiting on an ETA on a new engine. Current loaner is a 2021 Grand Cherokee that is a lot better than the Pacifica in both our opinions.
"A lot better" is fine, except for the part that the other Jeep product you own has been broken for more than a year now and the dealership has been nothing but slow and obtuse about it.
I really think you and the wife need to have a harder conversation about never, ever, ever buying another Jeep product. Ever.
I really think you and the wife need to have a harder conversation about never, ever, ever buying another Jeep product. Ever.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Jeeps aren't bad until they start breaking down (which they always seem to do in a relatively short amount of time) and then it's just a constant repair ordeal after that. So if you replace it every 2 years, they're probably great ... or at least not bad.
Regards,
SB
New guy called me today, Brian. He wanted to let me know that he knows how frustrating it must be to be waiting so long on our vehicle, but that while he's not totally familiar with our case he does know that Chris has been speaking to the technician and that it was a STAR case so should be done very soon.
INNER THOUGHTS GOING ON: Oh my gods do I feel bad for this guy! Cold calling me and telling me the BS I spent month disproving? Be nice John, just make "uh-huh" noises for a bit and hear him out
Brian apologized for making our troubles worse but wondered if it would be ok for him to send us out a new loaner and get the Grand Cherokee back? Apparently someone saw it online and wants to buy it. Told him I didn't think it would be a problem but it wasn't here as my wife took it to work. He said he could even have it swapped out at her job, which I explained wouldn't be possible as she is a pharmacist and if she's the only one working she's not legally allowed to leave the pharmacy. I told him I'd call him in the morning when we were up and had our coffee. Also mentioned that everything he'd mentioned about our Renegade wasn't truthful and was months out of date and could he please check to see what the status of our new engine is so he could tell me when I called him in the morning and he apologized and explained he'd just read some notes and I told him it was cool but if we could find anything out it would be super swell.
Gonna talk to Chrissy later and see how she feels about it, she'll probably call him back and negotiate for a nicer loaner.
INNER THOUGHTS GOING ON: Oh my gods do I feel bad for this guy! Cold calling me and telling me the BS I spent month disproving? Be nice John, just make "uh-huh" noises for a bit and hear him out
Brian apologized for making our troubles worse but wondered if it would be ok for him to send us out a new loaner and get the Grand Cherokee back? Apparently someone saw it online and wants to buy it. Told him I didn't think it would be a problem but it wasn't here as my wife took it to work. He said he could even have it swapped out at her job, which I explained wouldn't be possible as she is a pharmacist and if she's the only one working she's not legally allowed to leave the pharmacy. I told him I'd call him in the morning when we were up and had our coffee. Also mentioned that everything he'd mentioned about our Renegade wasn't truthful and was months out of date and could he please check to see what the status of our new engine is so he could tell me when I called him in the morning and he apologized and explained he'd just read some notes and I told him it was cool but if we could find anything out it would be super swell.
Gonna talk to Chrissy later and see how she feels about it, she'll probably call him back and negotiate for a nicer loaner.
No I'm Brian and so is my wife
Jeep dealer funzers! They want the Grand Cherokee back and will bring us out a VW Atlas. I got the Jeep here ready after 4 days of run around with them and they want to pick it up now, I told Brian they could pick it up as soon as they got me an update on our Renegade. Brian said he'd have to talk to Chris first who'll be in a meeting for a few hours so he said they'll come get it now and call me later with the update.
I said no, you'll give me an update and then you can get the Cherokee. I told 'em 4 days ago I wanted an update and I'm real tired of dancing to their tune. That small pettiness felt absolutely wonderful this morning. Any bets on the update being, "we're still waiting for approval on the engine"?
I said no, you'll give me an update and then you can get the Cherokee. I told 'em 4 days ago I wanted an update and I'm real tired of dancing to their tune. That small pettiness felt absolutely wonderful this morning. Any bets on the update being, "we're still waiting for approval on the engine"?
More like "We're Stellantis, you'll get what we give you and you'll keep buying our shite. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong!!"
Good luck with trying to wring an answer out of them. The Atlas is a nice ride, maybe a few more months of burning loaner time in a non-Stellantis brand will help the wife make a different decision.
Good luck with trying to wring an answer out of them. The Atlas is a nice ride, maybe a few more months of burning loaner time in a non-Stellantis brand will help the wife make a different decision.
There's no real different decision to make at this point. It's literally just walk away from the Renegade and they'll give us $17,500 towards a new car from them, which is NOT an option.
Also the Renegade has 0% financing, best they can offer us on a new deal is about 1.9% so again no way.
I've only driven the Atlas in to the garage so far from the driveway so no real opinions yet, just getting real annoyed with the lies and the run around
EDITED BITS: Chris called me with a Renegade update before they picked it up. Said the engine may be here as soon as today and he'd email me pictures. I never received the pictures. :|
Also the Renegade has 0% financing, best they can offer us on a new deal is about 1.9% so again no way.
I've only driven the Atlas in to the garage so far from the driveway so no real opinions yet, just getting real annoyed with the lies and the run around
EDITED BITS: Chris called me with a Renegade update before they picked it up. Said the engine may be here as soon as today and he'd email me pictures. I never received the pictures. :|
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Unreliable vehicles is one thing, but that dealership also seems quite bad.
Regards,
SB
I got the pictures yesterday, the cause of the engine failure was improperly torqued head bolts. The pictures seem to show where it was leaking through the head gasket and the cam shafts have striation marks on them.
They gave us another VW Atlas, this time black and slightly less stinky. After 30 minutes at the car wash detailing center she determined it was acceptable. I'm not so sure. It has 3 different brands of rubber on the wheels that aren't very new and the back of one of the backseats is falling off. When I feel calm and forgiving I'm going to call them and find out when the new engine will be here.
They gave us another VW Atlas, this time black and slightly less stinky. After 30 minutes at the car wash detailing center she determined it was acceptable. I'm not so sure. It has 3 different brands of rubber on the wheels that aren't very new and the back of one of the backseats is falling off. When I feel calm and forgiving I'm going to call them and find out when the new engine will be here.
Every head bolt from any manufacturer who uses them are torque-to-yield, and it requires someone with a modicum of knowledge to not screw up.
Two things to know about head bolts which can easily explain why people who don't know what they're doing are likely to screw it up. First, the crazy part:
These bolts are literally meant to be twisted to the point where they slightly deform under the immense torque and tension placed upon them, hence why you torque them until they actually begin to yield. Essentially, you start by using a very specific cross-hatch pattern to tighten the bolts into cylinder head, in moderate torque steps, and in a way which the clamping pressure is evenly dispersed across the cylinder head. If you torque them out of order (eg front to back, or left to right) then you're going to warp the head and the gasket will not seal.
A common head bolt torque might be 90lb/ft. So you start with the middle left, tighten it to 45lb/ft, then the middle right tightened to 45lb/ft, then the next-to-the-middle left, then down-from-the-middle right, blah blah until they're all 45lb/ft. Then we repeat to say 70lb/ft, then again until they're all 90lb/ft. Then it gets nuts: you will then use a special wrench with a protractor built in, and tighten the bolt a specific number of degrees, such as 90 degrees in most modern engines. One particular older motor I've worked on, from Hyundai, had you do this step to 60 degrees but then do it TWICE (for a total of 120 degrees of rotation.) This crazy amount of twist is performed after the bolt is tightened down to 90lb/ft!
That last step is the part where you're literally deforming the steel bolt, and it works by leveraging the "springy" nature of the steel to provide even more clamping pressure than a simple foot-pounds-of-torque value might otherwise confer. Because you're literally deforming the bolt, you cannot re-use torque-to-yield bolts. This often screws up n00bs because head bolts (crank bolts, rod bolts are all common examples too) get expensive because they're throwaway parts. "Well, it looks just fine to me" becomes the erroneous answer when someone who doesn't know, or isn't following directions, tries to reuse them and effs up someone's motor.
Now, the second part which also causes n00bs to destroy motors: lubrication.
If you make something slippery, you can often get it squeezed into tighter places. This works on bolts too; slathering them in different lubricants will allow higher clamping force with an otherwise equal torque spec. This is because the threads of the bolt have less friction with the threads in the block. Without that boundary surface friction, more of the torque serves to clamp down versus overcoming the friction between bolt vs block threads. As good as this might naively sound (yay more clamping pressure is good, right?) it absolutely leads to failures.
Every manufacturer has VERY clear directions on whether lube is to be used or not, and if so, which lube should be used. Most factory head bolts expect both the block holes and the bolt itself to be fully dry and free of any oil, grease, moisture or other debris. If you lube up the bolt before going to town, you can quite easily over-torque the bolt simply because the manufacturing spec expected and purposefully designed for the proper boundary friction between bolt and receiving hole. So if dummy tech dipped it in some 5w20 before slapping it together (an action which is common practice when using head studs, which are VERY different things) the ensuing torque-to-yield will over-yield the bolt, actually causing it to lose the springy-ness and fail to clamp the head properly.
Really, really high end cars and most aftermarket "built" engines do away with the bolts and move to studs. This is where a fully threaded "rod" of sorts is gently screwed into the block with the studs protruding, the head is gently threaded onto the protruding studs, and then washers and nuts are affixed to finally clamp the head down. Studs are remarkably stronger and are (if not mis-used) fully reusable, and they too mandate VERY specific lubrication to be used on the threads and the washers and nuts to ensure everything torques properly.
A competent mechanic knows all of this, some new person they hired at $8.25/hr who has never done one before has about five different ways to really easily screw it up. You absolutely got the cheap labor treatment, without question.
Two things to know about head bolts which can easily explain why people who don't know what they're doing are likely to screw it up. First, the crazy part:
These bolts are literally meant to be twisted to the point where they slightly deform under the immense torque and tension placed upon them, hence why you torque them until they actually begin to yield. Essentially, you start by using a very specific cross-hatch pattern to tighten the bolts into cylinder head, in moderate torque steps, and in a way which the clamping pressure is evenly dispersed across the cylinder head. If you torque them out of order (eg front to back, or left to right) then you're going to warp the head and the gasket will not seal.
A common head bolt torque might be 90lb/ft. So you start with the middle left, tighten it to 45lb/ft, then the middle right tightened to 45lb/ft, then the next-to-the-middle left, then down-from-the-middle right, blah blah until they're all 45lb/ft. Then we repeat to say 70lb/ft, then again until they're all 90lb/ft. Then it gets nuts: you will then use a special wrench with a protractor built in, and tighten the bolt a specific number of degrees, such as 90 degrees in most modern engines. One particular older motor I've worked on, from Hyundai, had you do this step to 60 degrees but then do it TWICE (for a total of 120 degrees of rotation.) This crazy amount of twist is performed after the bolt is tightened down to 90lb/ft!
That last step is the part where you're literally deforming the steel bolt, and it works by leveraging the "springy" nature of the steel to provide even more clamping pressure than a simple foot-pounds-of-torque value might otherwise confer. Because you're literally deforming the bolt, you cannot re-use torque-to-yield bolts. This often screws up n00bs because head bolts (crank bolts, rod bolts are all common examples too) get expensive because they're throwaway parts. "Well, it looks just fine to me" becomes the erroneous answer when someone who doesn't know, or isn't following directions, tries to reuse them and effs up someone's motor.
Now, the second part which also causes n00bs to destroy motors: lubrication.
If you make something slippery, you can often get it squeezed into tighter places. This works on bolts too; slathering them in different lubricants will allow higher clamping force with an otherwise equal torque spec. This is because the threads of the bolt have less friction with the threads in the block. Without that boundary surface friction, more of the torque serves to clamp down versus overcoming the friction between bolt vs block threads. As good as this might naively sound (yay more clamping pressure is good, right?) it absolutely leads to failures.
Every manufacturer has VERY clear directions on whether lube is to be used or not, and if so, which lube should be used. Most factory head bolts expect both the block holes and the bolt itself to be fully dry and free of any oil, grease, moisture or other debris. If you lube up the bolt before going to town, you can quite easily over-torque the bolt simply because the manufacturing spec expected and purposefully designed for the proper boundary friction between bolt and receiving hole. So if dummy tech dipped it in some 5w20 before slapping it together (an action which is common practice when using head studs, which are VERY different things) the ensuing torque-to-yield will over-yield the bolt, actually causing it to lose the springy-ness and fail to clamp the head properly.
Really, really high end cars and most aftermarket "built" engines do away with the bolts and move to studs. This is where a fully threaded "rod" of sorts is gently screwed into the block with the studs protruding, the head is gently threaded onto the protruding studs, and then washers and nuts are affixed to finally clamp the head down. Studs are remarkably stronger and are (if not mis-used) fully reusable, and they too mandate VERY specific lubrication to be used on the threads and the washers and nuts to ensure everything torques properly.
A competent mechanic knows all of this, some new person they hired at $8.25/hr who has never done one before has about five different ways to really easily screw it up. You absolutely got the cheap labor treatment, without question.
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