Acert93 said:
Hey cthellis
I can see your exact points and you are dead on. A lot comes down to preference... and that is why my post is laced with a lot of "I prefer" and "IMO" and "I have small hands thus..." to explain why
Nuh-uh. You heard Talyn... It's FACT, man!
Meanwhile, I'm not arguing with you--we both know we're just talking about differences in style and preference--but I
do like talking about the subject in general with people who treat it as it should be. ^_^
Some games require (well, require if you are really good) to have access to the left analog stick, the 4 face buttons, and 4 shoulder triggers. e.g. in Madden...
Hmm... That would explain it some. I don't play sports games, and to my experience the only games that ever really WANT you to use all the shoulder buttons simultaneously unless you're dual-analog controlling (it which point you rarely need to hit the face buttons and it's pretty easy to hold the controller in general.)
I do in your example, however, blame Madden's setup if they don't let you re-assign keys, as there's no reason to not have Stiff Arm (R1/R2) and Juke (L1/L2) which would clear up any need to cover all four buttons and give you your preference of which to use. It's not actually
using all four for different purposes--it's forcing you to use them a bit bass-ackward.
Yes, I have very small hands. My wife, who is 5'4" has bigger hands than I do. My 13yr old sister-in-law has bigger hands (slightly) than I do.
Dude, I pity you. It's got to be pretty hard in general.
Now if only you were also a lefty so you could add to the problem! Hehe...
As for the Z button on the GCN, I do not have this problem. The Shoulder buttons on the GCN are more Shoulder TRIGGERS that form fit to the finger--this helps with the grip and balance of the controller (at least for me). So I put my middle fingers on the Shoulder Triggers and my pointer finger on the Z button. Compare this to the DS2, your fingers rest on the shoulder buttons, while on the GCN your fingers rest in the trigger groove.
I do that from time to time, but it's uncomfortable. That method will work for you, but for people with larger hands and thicker fingers it's just a pain. You end up with the triggers rubbing against a finger and no firm grip on the Z button. (I also personally don't like feeling the button on only one side and not the other. I still have no reason why they didn't put an equivalent button on the other side for symmetry's sake as well as--well--having another button option.) Also it's just a bit annoying to use middle fingers as the primary trigger pullers. That's what index fingers are for, dammit.
I just move my right index to tag the Z button. Thankfully it doesn't really get used much anyway--and certainly not for anything timing-critical. (I think the only game where I really wanted it to use it fast and well was in Godzilla
AM.)
Btw, I have found the Pelican Chameleon PS2 Controller to be better for me than the DS2. R2/L2 are moved down the handles and are more like triggers. This gives easy access to all 4 shoulder buttons in a comfortable grip. If you see it at Walmart give it a squeeze. Quite a few reviewers actually prefer it to the DS2. For games that require an extra shoulder button, I would say it is even better than the GCN Controller. That is how much I like it (and I traditionally hate 3rd party junk-o controllers).
Thanks for the suggestion, but I've already seen the way those controllers are laid out, and I'm not a fan of the tiered triggers. It's an interesting idea, but my hands are large enough that THAT is what will start cramping my hands (as well as forcing me to grip around the controller more, which I don't like). Not to mention when I'm holding the controller for many fighting games (using my right leg for support and striking the face buttons with my index and middle fingers so it's more arcade-like as opposed to using only my thumb, which I find much more clunky and unresponsive--especially in a combo-intensive game) R2 will be almost completely accessable. In any comfortably loose hold, I'd also end up hitting R2/L2 with the bottom of my middle finger rather than the tip (or at least closer to the tip) which I find more disconcerting and less responsive (I have to move my whole finger more to get it to press, rather than just a quick, light tap.)
The Dual Shock has such easy versatility for me that I rather doubt I'll use other controllers, excepting specialized ones for games I really like. (Pursuing some 6-button ones for Capcom games, arcade sticks, etc.)
Correct and good points. I think the ideal controller would be one that has a totally ergonomic fit and feel where it balances in your hands with a natural grip while giving you access to as many naturally placed buttons as possible. To do this to the GCN controller I would:
Hmm... I'd end up mutating the Cube's controller a lot, I think. I would either: A) remove the Z button completely and give more credence to the full triggers in games, or B) add a Z button on the left side, remove the main trigger housings (I don't like they way they trap your fingers and make it harder to move to other buttons and back) and increase the width of the Z's to give them more prominence, and turn the main triggers into smaller versions of themselves--with enough pull to be more use useful than the PS2's at analog functions, but not require you to pull as far to get the full click. Somewhere between the two, really. And cup them to comfort the finger rather than giving them heavily-sidewalled channels.
As well:
- Similarly make the C-stick bigger and much better as an analog stick. Going all the way to the left-analog would go too far in its position, so although I prefer symmetry I wouldn't go that far. It could function well in a form similar to the Dual Shock's sticks--shorter and stubbier, but with a reasonable head for your thumb and better responsiveness.
- Like with the triggers, either make more games A) function and more intelligently with the custom button setup, or B) abandon it altogether and go with the common layout. (Perhaps with setup more contoured to your thumb's range of motion, also definitely with 6 face buttons and at least the four main ones having analog capabilities (even if just minor. The ability to dual-task buttons easily is excellent).
- Increase the size of the D-pad at least 50% and make it at the very least of softer and smoother-edged rubber, rather than the uncomfortable tiny form it's currently in.
- Get rid of the octagonal case "guides" for the left analog stick. I want my good analog to be used FULLY if it's being used at all; they make it more annoying to do slight changes at full extension. If
having to conform to an 8-way directional is that important in a game, they can compensate in the software.
To improve the PS2's... Well, offhand I'd be aiming it at the same direction I was just suggesting for the Cube's (which really needs to be
fully embraced or changed to be more universal. I'm fine with it being unique, though, since as has been pointed out you can just get an adaptor to use one of the more universal PS2/Xbox controllers in its stead
) Improve the quality of the buttons (give them higher-quality analog responsiveness) especially L2/R2 (which can function as the primary triggers in most games, so give them notably more sway and responsiveness--but not enough to go all-out "trigger," my issues of which have been mentioned elsewhere
) and definitely the analog sticks. Shape the face buttons a bit more for natural thumb use and move them to fit at least two more smaller face buttons... The D-pad could change to a solid disk design mainly because I think more people prefer it; I've never cared one way or the other. (I probably have a bit of a preference for the PS method only because I've used it for so many years. It was only their first controllers that actually bothered my thumb from casing-rubbing.) Though come to think of it, the Dual Shock method allows for the creation and use of an analog D-pad as well, which could have interesting uses, and can't really be done as well with a solid design.
The major change I'd be talking about from a "modular" perspective which I would apply to both would be the ability to flip the position of the D-pad and left analog stick; you could make it so that either the D-pad OR the left analog would be in the primary and most natural position for your left thumb, also make it so that any game you want to play with dual-analog controls could definitely have symmetric placement. (The Dual Shock I think by far works best dual-analog for that reason--as well as the best shoulder button arrangement for those types of games--among others.)
Yes, triggers have an advantage with analog (which is not always used). Like I pointed out above, for some people the triggers, because of the form fitting grooves, allow a stable/balanced "soft" grip on the controller. That is an advantage for some people (but everyones hands are different... may be a mute point to some/many). I think the alternating hand position thing is sort of exclusive to the PS controllers because of their handle design--that is, this is not a necessary design feature.
Certainly. I think, in fact, most people like it simply for "feeling like they're pulling a trigger" and giving them a better feeling of grip on the controller in the primary placement. If more games actually used the range of motion they offered I'd feel different about them, but for the most part that seems to be limited to driving sims. (And the serious simmer goes to force feedback wheels, of course.
) Not even "driving games" as though you can use it as a gradual accelerator, there are very few driving games that really use/need more than "accelerator floored," "accelerator off," and "brake/handbrake on" as their motion options. Since it negatively impacts the rest of gameplay in the VAST majority of games, I find the novelty just not worth it. (And the "grip" enhacements annoying as it makes it harder for me to use them well at all when I invariably want to shift my hands to a personalized position.)
Do baseball games let you use them to adjust your pitch speed? That's about the only other game type I can think of off the top of my head that would integrate it as a constantly-used game mechanic and could use the more natural approach to it.
If a controller can be designed that allows access comfortably to all buttons without changing grip, now that would be ideal. I think these controlers do exist...
I don't think so. As in the first place they'd have to make the same controller of in three different sizes so that people would actually be able to use the one that most closely matches their hand size, and no company is really going to do that. (More expensive, hard to market anyway, hard to predict and meet demand...) Meanwhile, I'm not talking about things like "shifting grip" but rather "changing the way you hold the controller." I already explained one of my others styles earlier with fighting games (bracing--not holding--the right side of the controller with my leg so I can use my index/middle/ring fingers on the face buttons for fighting games). Other weird-ass grips I have used include holding the controller weirdly sideways so I can lift my left hand off the grip (bracing with my leg if need be) and bear down my thumb on the D-pad for rapid-rapid-
rapid pressing of my left thumb. (Something my right thumb for any other finger cannot do nearly as well, so reassigning keys doesn't matter either.)
Play a lot of Bemani games excessively and you'll know what I mean.
But in the end, the scope of games and the desire for different personal playstyles in all those kinds of games forbids any "optimal design" which is why I think the less a controller tries to force you one way or the other, the better. For me, the Dual Shock gives me the best combination of everything I'm likely to do and is more easy for me to manipulate in my own way, so takes my "overall favorite" by a longshot. It could use its own quality improvements, certainly, but gives me the best controller to use in all the games I want to use it in. And THAT is what I look for most in the controllers bundled in each system, as they're the most numerous, come "free," and are the ones my friends will have around too.
I'm certainly one for personalized controllers too, though... But for specific games and game types one is still much more able to personalize than the other "still generic" controllers would, so... <shrugs>
Diffinately a preference issue. I grew up on the Cross design, so that may be part of it (I spent far too many hours as a teen mastering every nuance of SFII on the SNES).
Obviously I grew up on that design too.
But this particular preference I find easy to ignore. I bothered me on the first PS1 controllers simply because there was hard-edged plastic my thumb would rub against, but they took care of that design issue. Meanwhile, as much as I don't care too much, I still find the D-pad-as-buttons to give me faster response in the games I mainly use the D-pad for (fighting and puzzle games) so... <shrugs> It's easier to double tap, easier to get quarter/half/full/double-motions on. Heck, it's also just plain better at "using the D-pad just for extra buttons" functionality, and has the feasability of adding analog functionality to them,
and is the only D-pad that could use up/down and left/right presses as additional commands (not that there'd be any real call for that, but hey--versatility is versatility
)... I still like the design. So long as one isn't bothered by its use, I find it better at its function.
e.g. I use a trackball exclusively for my computer. Without sounding like I am bragging, I am very good at FPS and would never think of using a controller on my PC for a FPS!! So that is an example of a KB/MS being a better setup for getting max effeciency for those comfortable with it.
True. I'm very non-caring of any "trying to take itself seriously" console FPS because of it. I'm fine with a silly game like Timesplitters, but playing Halo or Killzone would drive me nuts. I
need my KB/M for proper control and
want the games designed around having a lot of keys available for easy accessability rather than stripping down an FPS's design capabilities because gamepads only have a limited amount of buttons with easy access.
But on the reverse I use a joystick for flight sims (MS Sidewinder 3D Pro). For sports games I use my Pelican. On the GCN I use the Wavebird and on the PS2/Xbox standard controllers. I try to use whatever is best for that game/platform. The key is finding the best controller for your tastes and for the games you play.
Very true. But as I stated earlier, my desire for a "universally acceptable" gamepad for consoles also stands, as I'll be playing a broad swath easier with it. As with anything else I can pick up the specifically-designed controllers if I want, but the bundled ones will run the gaming gamut on consoles the way keyboard/mouse does everything on the PC. It's what the machines come with, and it's what is it be most "universal."
Sounds like you have found controllers you like, and that is a good thing! In a lot of ways we are spoiled. Go back and trying using a NES, or heaven forbid, an ATARI joystick! Man that thing hurt my hands!
<laughs> Hey, my controller pursuits started back with the Atari anyway. One could easily use full-grip controllers because all games used, like, 1-2 buttons anyway (except on the computer where you used the keyboard instead), and some games like Decathalon made me pursue
tiny and sturdy controllers I could whip the stick back and forth on at a feverish pace without breaking...
Then of course there were the paddles... Hehe.
I think input devices will play a bigger and bigger role in the future. While features will be a big issue on the next consoles (and graphics), I think going forward with the PS4/X3/N6 that input devices will be just as important. What is the point of all that power if the input device neuters your ability to interact with the gaming world?
We always see them getting filtered in over time. Audio and video already have, and more will come in better ways of course. What our controllers are likely to have...? Dunno. Audio would be pretty trivial to add in, so I would certainly LIKE to see built-in mics. Video would possibly be built/bundled into the systems themselves and not the controllers, but we might get a "display" of some sort on them. (I tend to think they won't for cost reasons, though.) Controllers always tend to take safe steps, though, so I wouldn't expect to see anything explosively cool. (And it's what makes me wonder the most about N5, as I can't see any real "input revolution" they could possibly be looking at. Anything too outlandish may well disenfranchise gamers, and most other things will simply be a refined form of what we already see now. Just peripherals delivering it better, and developers really noticing what they can do with it.)
I see stuff like that more likely than HMD (head tracking/vr glasses), although I can hope
I think "doubtful" to this one too. It's gotten tossed around as the "next big thing" for decades, really, and it's not cheap, easy, and non-encumbering enough to catch on with the public or the manufacturers yet.
The glasses, that is. And since glasses give the real purpose to head-tracking devices, that tends to put a crimp on them. I do expect to see motion-sensing in various forms (probably camera-related, since that has the most additional other outlets to tap) though, and head-tracking software could be useful in building things like automatic camera-panning in games so one wouldn't have to use an analog controller for simple usage.
