Hey cthellis
I can see your exact points and you are dead on. A lot comes down to preference... and that is why my post is laced with a lot of "I prefer" and "IMO" and "I have small hands thus..." to explain why
You shouldn't be gripping all four at the same time in any game that isn't using dual-analog as its primary controls and the shoulder-buttons as the primary buttons. As with the GameCube controller, you just operate all the shoulder buttons with your index fingers and it works just fine--big hands or small. Or do you complain about missed Z-button pushes on the GCN controller because you can't keep a finger there comfortably all the time?
Some games require (well, require if you are really good) to have access to the left analog stick, the 4 face buttons, and 4 shoulder triggers. e.g. in Madden you need to be able to quickly choose a speed burst (Circle), dive (Square), spin move (X), stiff arm (R2/L2), juke (R1/L1), or cover the ball (Triangle). Slipping my fingers back and forth on the shoulder buttons (a) prevents me from being as quick as possible and (b) with my small/sweaty hands I loose my grip and often cannot get to the buttons. So there are games that require you to use an analog stick and have access to all 4 shoulder and face buttons.
Yes, I have very small hands. My wife, who is 5'4" has bigger hands than I do. My 13yr old sister-in-law has bigger hands (slightly) than I do.
As for the Z button on the GCN, I do not have this problem. The Shoulder buttons on the GCN are more Shoulder TRIGGERS that form fit to the finger--this helps with the grip and balance of the controller (at least for me). So I put my middle fingers on the Shoulder Triggers and my pointer finger on the Z button. Compare this to the DS2, your fingers rest
on the shoulder buttons, while on the GCN your fingers
rest in the trigger groove.
Btw, I have found the Pelican Chameleon PS2 Controller to be better for me than the DS2. R2/L2 are moved down the handles and are more like triggers. This gives easy access to all 4 shoulder buttons in a comfortable grip. If you see it at Walmart give it a squeeze. Quite a few reviewers actually prefer it to the DS2. For games that require an extra shoulder button, I would say it is even better than the GCN Controller. That is how much I like it (and I traditionally hate 3rd party junk-o controllers).
The main problem is simply that the GameCube's face button setup has to be designed around or there's a good chance it will be bad. (Talk to any fighting game not directly created by Nintendo, basically. ) While many of the Nintendo games are good, many games have really been hurt by the button setup--which you really can't say about the PS2 or Xbox controllers. I have no trouble giving them the nod in this area, even though there is preference involved; the GCN controller is better for some games that take the time and effort, more or less the same for most, but can actively penalize you.
I could agree with that. None of the console controllers are perfect--all cater toward certain preferances and are better suited for certain games. I am in no way saying the GCN controller "pwns" all the other controllers. I have a preference for it due to comfort (a taste mind you), but definately not in ALL games. I would take the PS2 Pelican for football on the PC any day (mainly because the PC/PS2 versions have right/left stiff arm on different buttons, while the GCN football games put both functions on Z... which works fine btw, just a software/control design decision).
This one is all-personal of course, but I find "grip" comes at the direct compromise of being more and more unable to shift it based on game demands and personal preference. And since it's most useful with things you need to apply more pressure to hold and control--which you certainly do not need with a game controller--so grip will make a controller more comfortable to hold one way if all you EVER do is hold it one way. (And, of course, no controller can be designed for all hand sizes--as I'm sure you are well aware of--to the more it can only be held one way...)
Correct and good points. I think the ideal controller would be one that has a totally ergonomic fit and feel where it balances in your hands with a natural grip while giving you access to as many naturally placed buttons as possible. To do this to the GCN controller I would:
-Put a Z button on the left side
-Change the yellow C controller (which works fine) to a textured rubber joystick like the left Analog pad
-Maybe even change the 4 face buttons to a SNES setup, and maybe even put 2 smaller buttons to the left to have a total of 6 face buttons (4 large, 2 smaller just in case).
For the PS2, I would say the perfect PS2 controller exists: The Pelican Chameleon. The only thing I would change would be textured grooves on the joystick and a "larger" version for people like JVD with huge hands.
Btw, hopefully I do not come off as a Nintendo snob. I do own other consoles and I do find faults with their games/systems/business direction, just as I do with Sony/MS/Sega/whoever. I think Nintendo gets a bad rap at times, that is all
On triggers, I find since almost all games ignore the real advantage full triggers can offer (being more sensitive in offering a full analog sweep of response levels) the triggers are a burden. Mainly they offer a lot less responsiveness (levels adjust depend on personal taste and in particular games, of course) and are more limiting to your finger positions, while seldom using their one main advantage.
Yes, triggers have an advantage with analog (which is not always used). Like I pointed out above, for some people the triggers, because of the form fitting grooves, allow a stable/balanced "soft" grip on the controller. That is an advantage for some people (but everyones hands are different... may be a mute point to some/many). I think the alternating hand position thing is sort of exclusive to the PS controllers because of their handle design--that is, this is not a necessary design feature.
If a controller can be designed that allows access comfortably to all buttons without changing grip, now that would be ideal. I think these controlers do exist... and if Nintendo had included a Z2 on the loft it would have been close to doing this.
Hrm... Your hands must be VERY small. I can see liking a cross design, but I can hardly find a single person who would prefer the Cube's D-pad over just that fact. It is poor, less responsive, and almost wholly unsuited to any dute that isn't--well--being used as four separate buttons for occasional tapping. (In which case this design trade-off doesn't matter.)
Especially hurty-hurtful for fighting games--that still use the D-pad best--and puzzle games which don't need the analog at all. (Which admittedly hits me more, as those are the top two reasons I buy consoles.)
Diffinately a preference issue. I grew up on the Cross design, so that may be part of it (I spent far too many hours as a teen mastering every nuance of SFII on the SNES). Obviously a preference issue, but I prefer the D pad on the Pelican PS2 controller over the DS2 d pad. But again, all a prefernce... which beacons back to both of our points to Talyn: There is no way you can claim that a controller is best, without dispute, especially when you consider the fact people have different amounts of hand dexterity, length and girth size, hand size and girth, and general flexibility. And what GAMES they play will have a major impact.
e.g. I use a trackball exclusively for my computer. Without sounding like I am bragging, I am very good at FPS and would
never think of using a controller on my PC for a FPS!! So that is an example of a KB/MS being a better setup for getting max effeciency for those comfortable with it. But on the reverse I use a joystick for flight sims (MS Sidewinder 3D Pro). For sports games I use my Pelican. On the GCN I use the Wavebird and on the PS2/Xbox standard controllers. I try to use whatever is best for that game/platform. The key is finding the best controller for your tastes and for the games you play.
At any rate, the main point is that Talyn was being a yutz. But through extensive use, while I find the Cube's controller more comfortable in some games, I have to ultimately lean towards the PS2's because I pride versatility (which it has in spades) over marginally more comfort (since I do not grip the controller strongly anyway) in one way.
Sounds like you have found controllers you like, and that is a good thing! In a lot of ways we are spoiled. Go back and trying using a NES, or heaven forbid, an ATARI joystick! Man that thing hurt my hands!
Cthellis, if you have the oppurtunity and a few bucks to spare, try the Pelican Chameleon (Walmart has the wireless version). I think it may give you a new perspective on the versatility issue. You can access all the buttons from one very comfortable grip position. If you do not have monster sized hands, it may win you over. And I got the non-wireless version for $10 at Newegg.com.
Pic #1 of the Pelican
Pic #2 of the Pelican
IGN liked the Wireless Pelican Chameleon so much that
they said in their review: "I've taken to just using the Wireless Chameleon controllers whenever I'm playing a game on the PS2 because they are just that good. I recommend the Wireless Chameleon to anyone looking for a solid PS2 controller; in fact, since I don't mind the lack of a rumble, I'd call it my favorite Playstation controller, period."
In fact, other than the typical advancements we'd expect/like to see in next gen's controllers (better vibration, better wireless, an integrated mic, perhaps an integrated LCD screen of some sort...) I would be most impressed by a company that spent more time in bringing about a competent modular design that would make one controller work better for more people, rather than force them to buy a bunch with all different quality levels from the host of 3rd parties.
I think input devices will play a bigger and bigger role in the future. While features will be a big issue on the next consoles (and graphics), I think going forward with the PS4/X3/N6 that input devices will be just as important. What is the point of all that power if the input device neuters your ability to interact with the gaming world?
For example, look at this:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/04/09/news_6093357.html?skipmc=1
That would be pretty killer--and I do not even listen to much music (so it does not appeal to me). It is devices like that that could really sway the market to an entirely new direction, broaden the user base, and give a lot more features and flexibility. I see stuff like that more likely than HMD (head tracking/vr glasses), although I can hope
