RE 4 Impressions..?..

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Goldni, Jan 12, 2005.

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  1. Johnny Awesome

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    Many people are selectively quoting me, but I'm not going to respond to each individual Nintendo fan's personal criticisms. I will concede the point that I'm perhaps letting my personal pet peeve with past RE games color my judgement too much concerning RE4. I'm probably prejudging the game a little too harshly.

    I'll rent it, as Blade suggested, and then I'll be back with my impressions. I might not get around to it until later in the month though.

    Also to be fair to the Cube, if I didn't own an Xbox I would also own the following Cube games:

    Baldur's Gate: DA
    Beyond Good & Evil
    Hunter: The Reckoning
    Phantasy Star Online
    Prince of Persia
    Rayman 3
    Lord of the Rings: RotK
    Splinter Cell
    Splinter Cell: PT

    That would bring my GCN total to 14 right there, and I probably would have picked up another 5 or 6 games as B-list titles to keep me busy, so it's not a barren wasteland on the Cube.

    I try to be a little fairer in the future, but I still maintain that Nintendo had a golden opportunity to broaden their reach with the Gamecube and they squandered it.
     
  2. Fox5

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    So what do you propose as a solution?
    Nintendo seemed to do a very good job with 3rd parties.
    They gave silicon knights a chance, but both games it released bombed.
    And Rare has barely released anything this gen, and none of it has been mature games.
    And a lot of the best games this gen have been multiplatform, and xbox just happens to usually get the best versions of the multiplatform games.
     
  3. Blade

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    That's because Xbox is the most powerful. GameCube is the middle console tech-wise.

    Much like the middle child, not a good place to be. 3rd-parties can make the prettiest games on Xbox and sell the most games on PS2. GameCube gets lost in the shuffle pretty easily by this logic.. seeing as how it doesn't really have anything to differentiate it.

    The main draw is Nintendo's own titles. Regardless of how many 3rd-party exclusives the 'Cube has.. or could have.. Nintendo will be the draw for many gamers. I can say right now that without looking at release schedules or WIP's I'd pick N5 over PS3/XB2.
     
  4. Johnny Awesome

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    Well, as much as people like Teasy are going to go crazy on me for saying this: The day Nintendo decided to release a kids lunchbox style console with Luigi's Mansion as the big day 1 draw to the console was the day that casual gamers stopped taking it seriously. It's pretty much marketing/branding that Nintendo has faltered with.

    For me, I'm a hardcore gamer. I have 28 Dreamcast games, I skipped PS2 because I don't care for GT3, GTA, MGS, and FF is no big deal to me (though I think it's fine). I got an Xbox for Oddworld and PGR and heard about Halo and ended up loving it. My favorite game of 2003 was Amped 2. I got a Cube for Eternal Darkness and Starfox Adventures and I loved both of those games. I enjoyed Metroid Prime and Zelda: WW and I really liked Viewtiful Joe.

    So what I'm saying is that I'm not opposed to Cube. I'm just opposed to the way Nintendo handled the Cube (no pun intended). Lunchbox casing and endless Mario games are not the way to win over the general gaming public. To casual gamers between 18-29 (the bulk of the market), Mario is dead as an IP. They generally won't touch it. Gameplay doesn't matter. Paper Mario 2 could be the greatest RPG ever made and casuals wouldn't care.

    I realize that anecdotal stories are as prolific as assholes, but I showed most of my PS2/PC/Xbox casual gaming pals the joys of Metroid Prime and all of them couldn't get over the controls and what they call "dumbed down" lock on system. I think going against the grain is what makes Nintendo good, but it's also their downfall. When my casual gamer friends throw down their controllers in disgust, because Metroid Prime went against the grain ("why can't I look around while I'm moving") it all crystalizes for me about why Nintendo is selling less and less consoles each generation.

    I just wanted you guys to know where I'm coming from. Three of my favorite games were on Cube this generation (ED, SFA, and VJ) and I ended up liking MP and Zelda:WW as well, but I hang around enough casuals to know that Nintendo has become a joke outside of the hardcore community and budget-minded parents.

    I'm open-minded, but it would be hard to convince me otherwise. I think had MP, RE4, ED, and a few other big non-kiddy games and a cool design for Cube and a de-emphasis of Mario might have made the Cube a lot more successful had that been the impression from the get-go. As it stands the image of Pokemon, kiddy Zelda (another really bad decision), and Mario are firmly etched into the minds of casual gamers. Nintendo needs new IPs if they're going to climb out of the niche they are in right now IMO.

    RE4 seems like a good start, but Nintendo needs to follow through now.
     
  5. Goldni

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    I skipped PS2 as well..nothing at all interests me ..maybe GT4. I love my Cube. PM2 was awsome. I'm finishing up the most beautiful console game I've ever seen (MP2 Echoes) only to jump right in to the very game that just may top it afa visuals and gameplay RE4.
     
  6. Teasy

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    I'm not going to go crazy about that comment. I wouldn't agree 100% with it. For instance IMO Rogue Leader was the big draw for the system at launch. Also I don't believe that casual gamers stopped taking GC seriously from day one. But it certainly was a very bad start in the eye's of those gamers. Nintendo still had time to change things and in some ways they did. But it was more a case of two steps forwards and 1 and a half steps backwards (and sometimes two steps backwards) at times and that's not enough. In other words I agree that the design of GC and some of its release games hurt its image early on with a lot of gamers and it was difficult to recover from. Even though personally I like its design and games..

    Anyway can we now make this thread a RE4 impressions thread again please?
     
  7. gurgi

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    So much for RE4 impressions. Chooo Chooo!
     
  8. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
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    Why do that when we can keep arguing about things we've argued on every other RE4 thread, and any other GC-related thread?
    I t would require some major re-coding of the Matrix. Total paradigm shift. Or pyramid shit, can't remember, it's all a bit fuzzy at the moment....
     
  9. talyn99

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    Resident Evil 4 - Controls

    I was over at another forum and some folks were b*thcing about control.
    Personally I only bought the cube for Resident Evil Remake, ZERO anb RE4. I must say this game is fantastic, i have a NYKO attachment that allows me to use my PS2 controller. VASTLY superior than the Cube's, TRUST me, anyone having problems get the attachment pi9ece, you game will be greatly enhanced.

    Now, hello to all, cause im new, but have been watching ou guys for months. So with that out of the way, the puzzle piece when you control Ashley is kicking my *@$. So if anyone can help, I'd be glad.
    peace
     
  10. Fox5

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    Re: Resident Evil 4 - Controls

    How does the PS2 controller work any better for this game?
     
  11. Blade

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    When you only buy the GameCube for 3 games, all in the same series and one a remake.. obviously you're going to have a preference someplace else. Sony Country, in this case.
     
  12. cthellis42

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    Re: Resident Evil 4 - Controls

    Which one would that be?
     
  13. talyn99

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    I could have done without the negative undertones. I love Nintendo, im just not their b*@#h.

    All im saying s their controller, the main reason I did not buy a cube, when I learned about the inexpensive device, I had to get it. All Im saying is the PS2 controller is the BEST bar none. And none of you with a PS2, plus any one or two of the other systems can dispute that fact.

    IF you have RE4 and hate teh cube controller, the device is by NYKO, and under $10.
     
  14. cthellis42

    cthellis42 Hoopy Frood
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    You do know that controller-liking is preference and opinion, right? And that many different types of games can take advantage of different controller designs?

    But anyway, what section of RE4 were you talking about? It has just been beaten, so I'll know where you're stuck.
     
  15. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    I am disputing it right now :) I have both controllers and I prefer the GCN. Why?

    • I like the textured thumb joystick rubber. It has a better feel in my hand and does not slip when my hands get sweaty.

    • I dislike the PS2's joysticks how they are short, loose, and the rubber pads are smooth and too rounded. This means my fingers slip a lot when I get slightly sweaty.

    • I like the trigger shoulder buttons on the GCN controller 10x better IMO. They have a great feel and mold around your fingers. You never have to worry about them slipping off.

    • I really dislike the PS2 shoulder buttons. Since I have small hands I have a difficult time keeping my fingers on all 4 shoulder buttons while gripping the controller. This leads to cramps AND to missed button pushes. I constantly feel like I am trying to readjust the controller and my grip.

    • While a preferance, I like the GCN setup of A/B/X/Y better. Having a big button with others around it makes it very easy for newbs and has a comfortable place to put your finger on a primary use button and to quickly skip to the other 3. The DS2 setup is ok, so this is a wash--neither is better, although different games will perform better with varying setups.

    • I have small hands. The GCN controller really has an organic feel to it--because of the handle shapes/directions and the finger molded shoulder triggers you always have an even, comfortable grip. The DS2 is good, the GCN is better in my opinion (my hands have never cramped using it although the PS/PS2 controllers do make my hands cramp).

    • I prefer the Cross shaped D pad on the GCN controller over the 4 separate directional arrows D pad on the PS2. It feels easier to slide your fingers over the D pad for me.

    For these very reason I recently got a Pelican PS2 controller for my computer. It has the cross D pad, is smaller (less cramping), has the 2 shoulder buttons and R2/L2 are triggers lower down helping me get a better grip. Also, the joysticks are tall with very sticky rubber and are almost flat which means my fingers do not slip. I got the PS2 controller for my computer because unlike the GCN version of certain games, a certain PC game requires that stiff arms be done with separate buttons. And since I am a button mashing machine and refused to give up a button for another purpose I got a PS2 controller for my PC.

    I have used both controllers a lot (probably used the PS/PS2 controllers as much as the GCN) and I like the GCN controller better. And this is not even introducing the Wavebird into the equation... while everyone has a preference--and in no way will I say no one can have a preference that disagrees--but my personal preference states that the Wavebird is the best controller that I have used based on my hand size and personal tastes. Personal mileage may vary, but the Wavebird is hands down one of the best controllers ever.

    Anyhow, preference is an odd thing. It can always be disputed, and often times honestly. While I do not deny your preference for the PS2 controller, to say no one can dispute that the PS2 controller is best denies the fact that preference plays a big role and also ignores the fact that there are innovations on other controllers that are just as good, if not better. These features may be as important/more important to certain people/certain games.
     
  16. Blade

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    Acert: Aye.

    Talyn: You're entitled to your opinions and your preferences, but you just made a contradictory statement.

    "I bought the GameCube for RE1, RE0, and RE4"

    "I love Nintendo"

    :)
     
  17. cthellis42

    cthellis42 Hoopy Frood
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    While Talyn's statements are dumb, I will address a few of yours here too, Acert. ;)

    You shouldn't be gripping all four at the same time in any game that isn't using dual-analog as its primary controls and the shoulder-buttons as the primary buttons. As with the GameCube controller, you just operate all the shoulder buttons with your index fingers and it works just fine--big hands or small. Or do you complain about missed Z-button pushes on the GCN controller because you can't keep a finger there comfortably all the time? ;)
    The main problem is simply that the GameCube's face button setup has to be designed around or there's a good chance it will be bad. (Talk to any fighting game not directly created by Nintendo, basically. ;) ) While many of the Nintendo games are good, many games have really been hurt by the button setup--which you really can't say about the PS2 or Xbox controllers. I have no trouble giving them the nod in this area, even though there is preference involved; the GCN controller is better for some games that take the time and effort, more or less the same for most, but can actively penalize you.
    This one is all-personal of course, but I find "grip" comes at the direct compromise of being more and more unable to shift it based on game demands and personal preference. And since it's most useful with things you need to apply more pressure to hold and control--which you certainly do not need with a game controller--so grip will make a controller more comfortable to hold one way if all you EVER do is hold it one way. (And, of course, no controller can be designed for all hand sizes--as I'm sure you are well aware of--to the more it can only be held one way...)

    On triggers, I find since almost all games ignore the real advantage full triggers can offer (being more sensitive in offering a full analog sweep of response levels) the triggers are a burden. Mainly they offer a lot less responsiveness (levels adjust depend on personal taste and in particular games, of course) and are more limiting to your finger positions, while seldom using their one main advantage.

    Try picturing yourself playing Beatmania on a Cube controller. Go ahead--just try it. ;)
    Hrm... Your hands must be VERY small. I can see liking a cross design, but I can hardly find a single person who would prefer the Cube's D-pad over just that fact. It is poor, less responsive, and almost wholly unsuited to any dute that isn't--well--being used as four separate buttons for occasional tapping. (In which case this design trade-off doesn't matter.)

    Especially hurty-hurtful for fighting games--that still use the D-pad best--and puzzle games which don't need the analog at all. (Which admittedly hits me more, as those are the top two reasons I buy consoles.)



    At any rate, the main point is that Talyn was being a yutz. ;) But through extensive use, while I find the Cube's controller more comfortable in some games, I have to ultimately lean towards the PS2's because I pride versatility (which it has in spades) over marginally more comfort (since I do not grip the controller strongly anyway) in one way.

    In fact, other than the typical advancements we'd expect/like to see in next gen's controllers (better vibration, better wireless, an integrated mic, perhaps an integrated LCD screen of some sort...) I would be most impressed by a company that spent more time in bringing about a competent modular design that would make one controller work better for more people, rather than force them to buy a bunch with all different quality levels from the host of 3rd parties.
     
  18. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    Hey cthellis :)

    I can see your exact points and you are dead on. A lot comes down to preference... and that is why my post is laced with a lot of "I prefer" and "IMO" and "I have small hands thus..." to explain why ;)

    Some games require (well, require if you are really good) to have access to the left analog stick, the 4 face buttons, and 4 shoulder triggers. e.g. in Madden you need to be able to quickly choose a speed burst (Circle), dive (Square), spin move (X), stiff arm (R2/L2), juke (R1/L1), or cover the ball (Triangle). Slipping my fingers back and forth on the shoulder buttons (a) prevents me from being as quick as possible and (b) with my small/sweaty hands I loose my grip and often cannot get to the buttons. So there are games that require you to use an analog stick and have access to all 4 shoulder and face buttons.

    Yes, I have very small hands. My wife, who is 5'4" has bigger hands than I do. My 13yr old sister-in-law has bigger hands (slightly) than I do.

    As for the Z button on the GCN, I do not have this problem. The Shoulder buttons on the GCN are more Shoulder TRIGGERS that form fit to the finger--this helps with the grip and balance of the controller (at least for me). So I put my middle fingers on the Shoulder Triggers and my pointer finger on the Z button. Compare this to the DS2, your fingers rest on the shoulder buttons, while on the GCN your fingers rest in the trigger groove.

    Btw, I have found the Pelican Chameleon PS2 Controller to be better for me than the DS2. R2/L2 are moved down the handles and are more like triggers. This gives easy access to all 4 shoulder buttons in a comfortable grip. If you see it at Walmart give it a squeeze. Quite a few reviewers actually prefer it to the DS2. For games that require an extra shoulder button, I would say it is even better than the GCN Controller. That is how much I like it (and I traditionally hate 3rd party junk-o controllers).

    I could agree with that. None of the console controllers are perfect--all cater toward certain preferances and are better suited for certain games. I am in no way saying the GCN controller "pwns" all the other controllers. I have a preference for it due to comfort (a taste mind you), but definately not in ALL games. I would take the PS2 Pelican for football on the PC any day (mainly because the PC/PS2 versions have right/left stiff arm on different buttons, while the GCN football games put both functions on Z... which works fine btw, just a software/control design decision).

    Correct and good points. I think the ideal controller would be one that has a totally ergonomic fit and feel where it balances in your hands with a natural grip while giving you access to as many naturally placed buttons as possible. To do this to the GCN controller I would:

    -Put a Z button on the left side
    -Change the yellow C controller (which works fine) to a textured rubber joystick like the left Analog pad
    -Maybe even change the 4 face buttons to a SNES setup, and maybe even put 2 smaller buttons to the left to have a total of 6 face buttons (4 large, 2 smaller just in case).

    For the PS2, I would say the perfect PS2 controller exists: The Pelican Chameleon. The only thing I would change would be textured grooves on the joystick and a "larger" version for people like JVD with huge hands.

    Btw, hopefully I do not come off as a Nintendo snob. I do own other consoles and I do find faults with their games/systems/business direction, just as I do with Sony/MS/Sega/whoever. I think Nintendo gets a bad rap at times, that is all ;)

    Yes, triggers have an advantage with analog (which is not always used). Like I pointed out above, for some people the triggers, because of the form fitting grooves, allow a stable/balanced "soft" grip on the controller. That is an advantage for some people (but everyones hands are different... may be a mute point to some/many). I think the alternating hand position thing is sort of exclusive to the PS controllers because of their handle design--that is, this is not a necessary design feature.

    If a controller can be designed that allows access comfortably to all buttons without changing grip, now that would be ideal. I think these controlers do exist... and if Nintendo had included a Z2 on the loft it would have been close to doing this.

    Diffinately a preference issue. I grew up on the Cross design, so that may be part of it (I spent far too many hours as a teen mastering every nuance of SFII on the SNES). Obviously a preference issue, but I prefer the D pad on the Pelican PS2 controller over the DS2 d pad. But again, all a prefernce... which beacons back to both of our points to Talyn: There is no way you can claim that a controller is best, without dispute, especially when you consider the fact people have different amounts of hand dexterity, length and girth size, hand size and girth, and general flexibility. And what GAMES they play will have a major impact.

    e.g. I use a trackball exclusively for my computer. Without sounding like I am bragging, I am very good at FPS and would never think of using a controller on my PC for a FPS!! So that is an example of a KB/MS being a better setup for getting max effeciency for those comfortable with it. But on the reverse I use a joystick for flight sims (MS Sidewinder 3D Pro). For sports games I use my Pelican. On the GCN I use the Wavebird and on the PS2/Xbox standard controllers. I try to use whatever is best for that game/platform. The key is finding the best controller for your tastes and for the games you play.

    Sounds like you have found controllers you like, and that is a good thing! In a lot of ways we are spoiled. Go back and trying using a NES, or heaven forbid, an ATARI joystick! Man that thing hurt my hands!

    Cthellis, if you have the oppurtunity and a few bucks to spare, try the Pelican Chameleon (Walmart has the wireless version). I think it may give you a new perspective on the versatility issue. You can access all the buttons from one very comfortable grip position. If you do not have monster sized hands, it may win you over. And I got the non-wireless version for $10 at Newegg.com.

    Pic #1 of the Pelican

    Pic #2 of the Pelican

    IGN liked the Wireless Pelican Chameleon so much that they said in their review: "I've taken to just using the Wireless Chameleon controllers whenever I'm playing a game on the PS2 because they are just that good. I recommend the Wireless Chameleon to anyone looking for a solid PS2 controller; in fact, since I don't mind the lack of a rumble, I'd call it my favorite Playstation controller, period."

    I think input devices will play a bigger and bigger role in the future. While features will be a big issue on the next consoles (and graphics), I think going forward with the PS4/X3/N6 that input devices will be just as important. What is the point of all that power if the input device neuters your ability to interact with the gaming world?

    For example, look at this: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/04/09/news_6093357.html?skipmc=1

    That would be pretty killer--and I do not even listen to much music (so it does not appeal to me). It is devices like that that could really sway the market to an entirely new direction, broaden the user base, and give a lot more features and flexibility. I see stuff like that more likely than HMD (head tracking/vr glasses), although I can hope ;)
     
  19. talyn99

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    I need to get into the swing of this, so all of you bare with me please.
    U, this for the guy who said my statements are DUMB, wow, that's a stretch.

    I love nintendo, but when I felt that controller when they first came out, I was like HELL NO. How can I enjoy any of the games with such a crappy controller, what im saying is to each his own. But yeah, I guess you woudl have small hands(among other things) to really like that controller, or have had 'intimate' time with it(take it how you must.

    Came to drop an opinion for those who cannot gain the full pleasure of the game thats all, due too the Cube's controller. And yes, I LOVE Nintendo, but there are very few games on any of the system(Hate X-Block, so would not even mention them....................DAMN, just did).

    So too clarify my 'DUMB' self, I love Nintendo, but they keep dropping the ball with their 'undisclosed' features, and half-assed(half the time) ideas for thei controllers.

    Hell, after Mortal Kombat 4(N64), I HAD to pawn it off man. SO there, I would hope to intergrate my thoughts and opinions in with you guys, cause I have been coming here alot and have learned a HELL of alot.

    I can do without all the darma queen stuff, cause there are a few folks that are into that, im not. But ah well, I guess I gota take a few blows.


    P.S................ That Deadmeat guy was annoying as hell, but you gotta love his pursuit of truth, makes you think too. But his hate of Sony, hints at the fact they the weakest and kicking ass. Given all the technology info, directed to me from you guys, gotta appreciate the cube more, then Sony's architecture(brilliant to both). Will try to make more sense though, as im not used to this, and my thoughts digress alot. Peace and looking forward to continued learning with you guys
     
  20. Goldni

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    I loved the N64 controller and I love the Cube controller..especially the Wavebird. The Sony pads are average and the Xbox feels awkward in my large hands..even the old one .
     
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