Rare to commit corporate suicide in sale to MS

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by bryanb, Sep 10, 2002.

  1. bryanb

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    You must not know anyone who works at Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't pay bigger bucks. On average they pay 1/3 below the industry standard. The only lure to working at MS is job security compared to most of the game industry and stock options. And stock options are no longer an advantage as MS ceased to be a big growth stock about a year ago when PC sales flattended out. There's alot of recent hires at MS who are working for peanuts and have nothing to show for it except for a bunch of stock options that they can't and probably won't ever be able to sell for a profit.

    The sales of certain types of games on the xbox are pathetic. The sales of certain types of games on the GC are pathetic. You just wasted a whole bunch of brain cycles attempting to deny this? And no, meaningless analogies to the auto industry is just your brain spinning its wheels going nowhere.
     
  2. Ozymandis

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    That's what some people here would have you believe :p
     
  3. CaptainHowdy

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    actually, Disney is like Nintendo, they make stuff for the kids, but dont forget there are adults out there.. a kid will pick up thier game and love it, and the adults will be able to enjoy it just as much..

    think of Toy Story,Shrek, these types of movies best go with Nintendo, just good fun for anyone willing to try them, I saw just as many 20 year olds in Shrek as I did kids...

    the argument is old, tired and worthless..
    Nintendo has the right to make whatever kind of games they wish, they
    do not target one specific audience, they used to let the third partys handle the action, when third parties parted ways with Nintendo, less action games came, so Nintendo is now having to work at getting some news ones in. Nintendo is GOOD at what it does, they just have a lot of work to do to get the diversity back, and so far, its looking good.
     
  4. marconelly!

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    Just to point out, SGT2002 runs at 60FPS, Wreckless runs at 30 and drops below that every now and then. Thats 2X more polygons per second that needs to be drawn, and two times more effects to calculate in SGT. I don't understand how could you find Wreckless 'smoother'.
     
  5. Logan Leonhart

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    Pikmin is a prime example of how Nintendo "appeals to everyone", like Ozymandis said. They dumb down a concept, and try to retain an element of depth here and there, but all in all, Nintendo games are made for kids. Why can´t you admit that? Don´t tell me you think they´re made with people over 17 in mind. :lol: :edited just for wazoo: If you can´t see this, or even the focus on child-like elements in Nintendo games, you´re blind:edited just for wazoo:

    Besides, I don´t see why you get so worked up over this, it´s not like I´m saying they´re bad. I´m just saying the truth, they´re made for kids....and for Nintendo fans. It´s just that the gameplay is good enough that some older people will probably still like them. It still doesn´t change the fact that they´re made for kids.

    Also, movies like Monsters Inc and Toy Story are enjoyable only the first time through. Once you´re past the jokes, the superfluous nature of the movies become VERY apparent. I´d much rather watch Anime or mature movies.
     
  6. wazoo

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    They appeal to everyone or they are made for kids ??

    They are made with gamers in mind.

    And the fact is the Nile is not a river, you succeeded to say something right at the last moment. too bad it is not about videogames :lol:
     
  7. Logan Leonhart

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    Sorry, I forgot the "" in my post. I´ll fix it. Have you a point? Or are you just refusing to see the facts? Come on, I´ll help you: take a deep breath and say "Nintendo maks games for kids and I like them, Nintendo makes games for kids and I like them". See? It wasn´t that bad.
     
  8. Ozymandis

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    I'm confused Logan.

    Here they are saying on the one hand that "Image doesn't matter, gameplay is everything."

    Yet on the other hand they're too ashamed to admit that their favourite Nintendo games are targeted mostly towards young children.

    It doesn't really add up, does it :-?
     
  9. Johnny Awesome

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    It doesn't add up at all. Nintendo makes games primarily for young children. The good thing is that the gameplay is usually good enough to appeal to a wider/older audience. Mario Sunshine is a kids game. It plays well and I like it, but it's still a kids game.

    The danger for Nintendo is that gameplay can eventually be replicated. Miyamoto is being copied all the time by other developers. Sooner or later, I believe that MS/Sony will develop winning franchises with Miyamoto-quality gameplay in key Nintendo genres. This will eventually mean that Nintendo will lose their special appeal.

    Scenario: Imagine Kameo comes to Xbox and has great gameplay and sells 1 million copies. Maybe Kameo 2 will sell 2 million copies, and so on. Eventually, everyone doesn't see what's so special about Mario. Not special enough to buy hardware with poor 3rd party support.

    I realize that Ben will come in and tell me that Mario will always sell, that he's heard it all before, but this time I think it's different. Gameplay is evolving much more slowly now. When this happens, atmosphere, cool factor, and so on tend to take over more. Mario 64 captured people's attention because it was the first properly done 3D adventure game. 3D was the big thing back then, so Mario 64 mattered. 3D is old hat now. I'll be surprised if SMS sells more than 50% as well as M64, even if the Cube sells more hardware.

    Nintendo has chosen to ignore the one new innovative technology that might allow Miyamoto to shine through with unheard of gameplay - Online. I'm not confident that Miyamoto can really innovate without using all of the available new technology.

    MS acquisition of Rare is a long term play. With hundreds of employees that are well-versed in making kiddy games like Starfox, Rare should be able to help the Xbox break into the younger market. It's pretty obvious that Microsoft is trying to broaden the appeal of Xbox just as they are getting ready to reduce the price and size of the unit next year. They want to cover all the bases:

    Strong library (UC, PDO, Splinter Cell, Doom III, Psychonauts, Project Ego, Halo 2, Ninja Gaiden)
    Good online strategy (Xbox Live)
    Kiddy games (Rare)
    Extra features (HD - audio ripping, extendable games)
    DVD playback (now free)

    2001 was about the hardcore gamers (ex-PC gamers, etc...)
    2002 was about getting some interest from Sony fans and Sega fans
    2003 will be about the mass market with a $150 price tag
     
  10. Blade

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    The Nintendo "kiddy" argument is moot.

    I've already argued it enough over the past few years, and at this point I'm done.
     
  11. wazoo

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    They are trying to do this for 20 years.

    Kameo has nothing in common with Mario. Beside, it is just your speculation.

    at 50% of Mario 64 sales, it would be 2-3 times your best specualtion for Kameo. So at 5-6M, SMS will be a big failure but at 1M, Kameo will be a tremendous success. Talk about being biaised.

    For what it matters saleswise, who cares ?
     
  12. lurker

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    Yes, SGT runs at double the FPS, but Wreckless ha 3D bystanders, traffic lights, damage, REALISTIC physics (wherein, in a car going 100mph, when you hit another car, they move) Again, I am LOVING Sega GT, but there is something amiss when I am piloting a Jaguar limo and happen to bump into a 60's honda with my car stopping like I'm in my Mini hitting a milk truck. Yes, Wreckless was a rushed P.O.S. but it is still a great example of what the Xbox is capable of. Polys/sec, very important, but to give us 2D trees and sprites flashing camera's!?! I feel cheated, I don't know about you.

    Just to point out, SGT2002 runs at 60FPS, Wreckless runs at 30 and drops below that every now and then. Thats 2X more polygons per second that needs to be drawn, and two times more effects to calculate in SGT. I don't understand how could you find Wreckless 'smoother'.[/quote]

    PAC-Man would run at CRAZY FPS on the Xbox, FPS do not equal polys. I don't think that there is anywhere near a comparison of polys between Wreckless and SGT. Polys/sec is what draws me to console games (aside from not having to F\/<|< with drivers and patches. Yes, Wolfenstein will appear on the Xbox, and I will be disappointed with "Port-$#!T" if it appears with the same poly count. FPS gives the appearance of fluidity, polys give the impression of depth (to me, the untrained eye). Wreckless chopped up here and there, but I challenge you to find a PC(or any)game that seems more lifelike IN PLAY.

    Wreckless : Sadly lacking in gameplay, something to shoot for graphically for all other driving games. Try it in "driver" view and then tell me that it could have used more speed.
     
  13. Johnny Awesome

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    Yeah, the Wreckless engine was pretty incredible.

    My point about Mario is that he is on the decline. He'll move some hardware this time around, but because Miyamoto chose to ignore the major hardware innovations of the day when making the game, it won't be considered revolutionary. That's why Mario won't help hardware sales as much this time. I think the days when platform games sell over 2 million units and drive hardware sales are coming to a close, Mario included. Mario will still be successful, but just nothing special.

    Case in point: When I play Super Mario Sunshine I think to myself: "This is the best platform game ever made", but it still doesn't really excite me. Something's missing...
     
  14. BenSkywalker

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    Baaaad choice for comparison. They had to edit a bunch out of LoTR to get the sub R rating they needed. They removed "mature" content for the sake of making it family entertainment, and the movie still kicked all kinds of ass. What this comparison says, is you are of the firm belief that quality family entertainment with beat quality family entertainment... :roll:

    I would certainly take Aladdin(Mario) over NaturalBornKillers(GTA3) any day of the weak. Once you get past the adolescent blood lust and profanity, NBK is a very weak film.

    Problem is with this discussion is you have a bunch of kids arguing that Nintendo's games are for younger kids. Want a reality check here people? Most people over age fifty think that all games are for kids and we are all childish for playing them.

    I've already used one media example, but what about some more.

    How many of the "Greatest Films of All Time" carry an R tag? The Godfather, anything else in the top twenty(not talking gross, talking quality). How many off the best books are too obscene/violent/profane for a kid to read? I enjoy reading a King novel every now and then, and I wouldn't let my kids read it either(not yet, they are still too young). Tolkien's books are superior(would anyone argue that?) and I do let my kids read them.

    What do you think was a better movie, StarWars or RamboIII?

    The big difference between games and other forms of media is the type of interaction you have with them. With a movie or book your interaction is absorption of the story. In a game, your interaction is the gameplay. Games have reached a point where they are capable of delivering a compelling story, but in all honesty I can count the titles that have done so on one hand(I challenge anyone to list more then five, game based stories that would stand up on their own in traditional media formats).

    So what would put a game out of the reach of children?

    Content

    Difficulty

    On the content front we have plenty of RamboIII style games to chose from as examples, blood and guts for the sake of blood and guts. SoF, QuakeXX, GTA3, UT, the list goes on and on. These games don't lose much of anything(excluding GTA3 which is all about senseless violence) if you censor them down and eliminate much of the violent content. In fact, most of the die hard players of these titles eliminate the blood&guts anyway to keep the gameplay, the important part, smoother.

    Profanity is still rare in games so isn't a big factor. Nudity is just starting to be breached, and as such is trivial as of right now.

    Then we have graphic violence or gore with a point(usually to induce fear) ResidentEvil, Alone in the Dark etc fall under this category. These are games that would have a 'game making' element removed if they were to be toned down for the sake of child suitable content. They simply wouldn't be any good without the gore.

    For honest good story driven games that use mature themes the two I think of quickly are ED and Mafia, they would lose a significant amount of their entertainment value by removal of their violent/obscene driven content and would suffer accordingly. That said, the gameplay in either one of them could still be enjoyed stripped of all the unsuitable material, simply for their solid gameplay.

    That pretty much sums up content based reasons. Now difficulty also has many sub sections and reasons for being exclusive to younger children.

    Game mechanics is the first, and a non factor on consoles. Controllers are simply too limited to make for extremely deep game mechanics in terms of making it unplayable by younger children(HTH would you put a real RTS or flight sim on a console?). Titles such as Civ, C&C and the like fall along these lines.

    Gameplay difficulty is pretty much a complete non factor. If anything the title older kids are most likely to call 'kiddie' are far more difficult then the 'my monkey beat it without a problem' games such as MGS2 and GTA3. SMB/SMB2 is likely the most difficult game yet this gen and is firmly planted in what the older kids call the 'kiddie' demographic.

    Johnny-

    You mean that platformers are kids games. Likely the most childish platformer I have ever seen was CBFD which carried a 'M' rating.

    Kameo is a souped up Pokemon. I've never denied being very interested in the game, but it is nothing remotely like Mario(comparing a RPG to a platformer?).

    I've been hearing it since you were a toddler ;)

    There was roughly a decade between SMB and SMW, you think it is evolving slowly now?

    So it will only equal GTA3s sales? That would truly be a crushing blow :) You seriously underestimate just how powerful Mario has always been. He could very well lose 50% of his draw compared to the N64 and it would still be tripple what Halo has moved. Think about that.

    See if you are saying that at the end of Q4 '03. So far, what revolutionary new game have you heard about coming with this new 'innovative technology'?

    Obviously, and it's a huge score for MS now matter how you look at it. I was getting flamed pretty hard on the Nintendo boards for saying as much(over there I'm a 'rabid XBox fboy', you think we have closed minded platform zealots here sometimes, heh, you should see a few of the posters over there), and even getting some flak from our own posters who prefer Nintendo here(although as tends to be the case they did so with class and intelligence). I call them as I see them, whoever it is good or bad for. Mario will sell, huge.
     
  15. Colourless

    Colourless Monochrome wench
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    There is actually no way I would allow a child to play the original C&C. Arguably the NOD Campaign contains one of the most violent scenes ever seen in a computer game. It involved Kane pointing a gun at Seth's head and then firing. Seth obviously is killed. The big problem is this all seen by the player in a FMV cinematic. It's all rather horrific, and is very much not content suitable for a child.
     
  16. Johnny Awesome

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    Ben

    I think you and I both know that I tend to underestimate Nintendo's pull in the marketplace and I already admitted that Mario would move some hardware, but I don't think it's going to move nearly as much as many people think.

    Look at the following:

    Average age of console owner - 27
    Average age of having children - 23

    This means that many people who have kids in the Nintendo demographic play video games and own a console. If you play games at 31 and you buy a console, why not buy an Xbox or a PS2 and just add Rayman 3 and either Blinx or Sly Cooper to your game mix for your kids?

    The more and more people remain as gamers, the worse it gets for Nintendo because they have to appeal to 30+ year olds as well as 8 year olds. I'm betting that MS and Sony get better at pleasing 8 year olds quicker than Nintendo gets at pleasing the GTA3/Halo/MGS2 demographic and the older 30+ demographic.
     
  17. CaptainHowdy

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    you assume the only people who play Nintendo games are kids.
    Most 8-13 year olds dont give a rats arse about Zelda or Mario, its the ones who played them as kids who have and love the nostalgia and fun it brings.

    a poll taken on IGN boards has shown, that the majority of cube owners are in the 17-25 range, there were none under 12 on the poll, and the 13-17 was the smallest portion.

    what you have to see is its not a matter of Maturity(Mario is more mature than GTA3 no matter how you slice it, simple fun vs senseless killing), not that I dont enjoy GTA3, its main audience is the 13-17 year olds who get off on the gansta rapper themes, the 13 year old humor(and they dont see that the game was made to make fun of an American Culture Stereotype) mind you I am not downing the game, but 17-25 year olds are going to be the max I can see in buying this game, very few in the 25-35 group, if you think your mature by 25, your wrong, you will think you are, by the time you get to your late 20's, you will still look back and say, "God, I was an idiot"...

    Nintendo Vs XXXX only boils down to taste, with Nintendo, you will get a higher quality, that can not be argued, but you will sacrifice quantity, and miss out on some excellent games.. but that can be said for any console.. thats why noone should be a single console owner...
    personally, Nintendos Cheap price, and Must have exclusives are reason enough to make it a second system... I think Xbox can be passed up if you own a PC and a brain to upkeep it, but thats just me.
     
  18. Johnny Awesome

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    Yeah, it is just you. Which is precisely my point. :)

    Casual gamers are what drives large install bases. The number of people who are nostalgic for Mario is relatively small amongst the casual crowd over the age of 30.

    Xbox has a higher number of quality games out right now than Gamecube IMO. The Gamecube doesn't even have a decent racing game yet, whereas the Xbox has 3 (and soon 4). Why do you think that GCN is falling behind in the North America by almost 1 million units now, even at the lower price tag? Nintendo is relying on parents again in the US. I'm not sure this strategy is going to work long term...
     
  19. wazoo

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    I would be 12, My mother wouldn't let me spend my time on the net, not even talking about forums (add the fact that the ign forums are far from polite and not free). the internet is not the world.
     
  20. archie4oz

    archie4oz ea_spouse is H4WT!
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    Well the system is still capable of it (I even have the BBA for it), Nintendo simply hasn't taken a solid stance on Online gameplay. In a way I don't blame them, as Online play's biggest strength is also it's biggest weakness; people.

    Besides I think you're also forgetting about the gameplay possibilities of the AGB-GCN connectivity.
     
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