Rare to commit corporate suicide in sale to MS

[Blade]

Hey, I prefer mature movies too.

The problem with your generally sound argument is that we play games, not watch movies.

There were no bloody, sexual, or political games before.. and adults played them. Adults played Pac-Man, and Space Invaders.. Donkey Kong, and Defender. These days, when you play something like Donkey Kong.. you're considered in the minority.

Where has this industry gone? The only reason that GTA games got famous is due to their criminal nature. People are shrugging off a gameplay-rich game like Animal Crossing without even playing it. You know my opinion, Ozy..

You can see where I'm coming from, right? I can't help but argue with you, because I'm frankly disgusted at the way people treat light-hearted games today. It's just my nature. I play light-hearted games.. like Mario, Pikmin, and Sonic.. and then I go play some darker games.. such as Max Payne, RTCW, Resident Evil, and GTA3. I never discount a game based on how kiddy/mature it is.. I just play them for the gameplay and soak up the atmosphere/art-style. Graphics, great tunes and sound effects.. those get thrown in for an even better experience.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't see the problem with so-called "child-oriented" games. Sure, you have your easy-as-heck kid fests such as Mickey Mouse and Ronald McDonald.. those things I'm not so interested in.. but to say that a game like Animal Crossing is aimed squarely at kids is bunk! Like the movie Shrek or th' TV show Spongebob Squarepants, the game has something for everybody. Kids, teenagers, adults.. albeit the cute graphical presentation.

If the animals were replaced with "cyber-cops" and the AC village was a "futuristic city" without any change to the gameplay.. would this game still be kiddy? Would it still be entirely unappealing to adults, as many would say? Probably not..

PS: I don't care if I'm still missing your point, I just felt I should express my full opinion on this..

 

[Ozymandis]

Your viewpoint is more of a personal one that a general argument, just as every other Nintendo fan's in this thread.

I do see where you're coming from. And I even agree to an extent. I mean, I do try to play the sort of games you named. But I'm noticing as I'm getting older that they no longer hold my attention the way they used to. Especially now that (finally!) alternative games are available that actually appeal to my sense of style and action.

It used to be that the only games you could really find where bright and cheerful games. Even the "violent" games were limited by technology to the point where they couldn't really give you a good experience. Not anymore. And I for one love this new gaming scene!!


Edit:
Of course, I'll always love Sonic

 

[Blade]

I agree!

The only difference is that cartoony games still hold my attention.

 

[aneep]

IMO there are 2 sides to the arguments

one side argues that those who plays kiddy looking games as kiddy

and one side argues those who plays violent/T&A games as casual

i think both must make some efforts to recognise the others in a positive way

i mean we all play games for the experience right? wether it have kiddy themes, violence or T&A is irrelevent as long as we have fun

i see lots of ppl who bash violent/T&A games just because they have that as well, i mean having violence/T&A in a game doesn't automatically makes it a gameplay-less game, just as looking like a kiddy title doesn't automatically makes a game only fun to play as a kid

-aneep

 

[RaolinDarksbane]

There's a big difference between thinking that Goldeneye was crap on the N64 and thinking that PD Zero will be good on the Xbox hardware. The main problem with Goldeneye was the crappy hardware it was running on.

This comment is sooooo flawed. Back then the "crappy hardware" as you deemed it was pretty powerful to RARE. You can do things on the N64 that you can't on the PSX like bilinear filtering, mip-mapping, etc.... You can't compare the N64 back then to the XBOX now.

You also can't compare games like Pikmin and Animal Crossing with Max Payne, they are both completely different game. Games like Pikmin and AC IMHO are more mature than Max Payne simply because those game actually requires you to think. Can you think of an example in Max Payne that requires you to think besides "See Bad Guy, Shoot" or "Hurt badly, Run"???? There are other things besides blood, gore, sex that makes a game mature..... like challenge and the intelligence to play them.

The kids who plays AC at least have to be quite intelligent to play a game like AC that defies genre categorization, it also has tons of text so you know the kid have to be quite proficient in English to play it. Pikmin requires you to be smart enough to know how to be efficient with your Pikmin and time.

 

[Logan Leonhart]

Oh, come on, that´s just rubbish.

Pikmin is far from being a "mature" game. It´s a very simple RTS game, a "watered down" one if you like. You compare an action game, where thinking is not the main objective in the game, to a simple RTS...sounds fair to me. Want a mature one? Go play Starcraft now, or westwood´s RTS games.

Also, I don´t think that just because AC has text it means the game is "mature". The game is clearly aimed at the youngest demographic of gamers out there: art, concept, gameplay, characters, every single bit of the game has the words "made with kids in mind" marked on it. You´re just lying to yourself if you think otherwise and just makes you sound ridiculous.

The fabricated Nfan idea that kids are too stupid and dumb to play their Nintendo games is just rubbish. And it makes me mad, since my little brother is 10 and can play every single kind of game out there if he wants. Heck, he was skilled enough to get an 85% - 90% in SMW when he was 6, all by himself. I was also quite skilled when I was a kid, and so were the gamer friends I had.

It´s quite obvious that Nfans just like to think that, since that allows them to feel more comfortable when playing their games. Somehow, playing games made with kids in mind while avoiding "shallow" games that the only things that make them mature are blood and sex turns them suddenly into "hardcore" and "mature" gamers.

Whatever, but I think they should be honest to themselves. They play games made for kids. So what? So do I once in a while, variety is the spice of life.

 

[Ozymandis]

I agree with you totally Logan. Well put.

RaolinDarksbane, I think you're stretching it. None of your points are very valid, although Pikmin requires more thinking than Max Payne it's a very watered-down RTS as those sort of games go. "Real-time strategy for children" is how I like to think of it

 

[Mark Cicero]

Back to the subject at hand: Rare's impending implosion at the hands of a possible sale to Microsoft. We all know that family friendly games that are not sports games sell like sh*t on the xbox. On the other hand, the GameCube family friendly market is established and thriving. ... Look at the pathetic xbox. A quality game like Jet Set Radio Future only sold 75K. ... If Rare were to stay within the GameCube fold they would be guaranteed to sell games and make money. However, the expansion of the xbox market to include family friendly games, which Rare specializes in, is a large unknown. Its impossible to say if xbox userbase will ever expand beyond its current adult oriented segment. ...Clearly the xbox is in a far back 3rd position in both Japan and Europe. Again, this simply ads to risk involved in this gamble for RareWare.

Um, now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't trying to shore up a genre you happen to be light in by buying a known maker of quality items in said genre a good thing? The primary reason MS is trying (or maybe has by now) to acquire Rare is to increase the number of games that they have in that area and thus help erase the "well, xbox doesn't make that type of game so I'm not going to make if for them" menality. It's all about gaining inertia. More rare-esque games will come to Xbox if at least a few rare-esque games are actually on the system to begin with. Especially if they're made by (gasp) Rare.

As for the other debate, I believe in genre theory not demographic theory. Certain demographic sections will be drawn toward certain games. The more games you have in a certain genre for a system the more likely you are to have a corresponding age group following, not because you are programming for that group alone but for the genre that they happen to come along in. And its not a 1:1 correlation either because a demographic's interests may change with the generations entering into it.

 

[bryanb]

Back to the subject at hand: Rare's impending implosion at the hands of a possible sale to Microsoft. We all know that family friendly games that are not sports games sell like sh*t on the xbox. On the other hand, the GameCube family friendly market is established and thriving. ... Look at the pathetic xbox. A quality game like Jet Set Radio Future only sold 75K. ... If Rare were to stay within the GameCube fold they would be guaranteed to sell games and make money. However, the expansion of the xbox market to include family friendly games, which Rare specializes in, is a large unknown. Its impossible to say if xbox userbase will ever expand beyond its current adult oriented segment. ...Clearly the xbox is in a far back 3rd position in both Japan and Europe. Again, this simply ads to risk involved in this gamble for RareWare.

Um, now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't trying to shore up a genre you happen to be light in by buying a known maker of quality items in said genre a good thing? The primary reason MS is trying (or maybe has by now) to acquire Rare is to increase the number of games that they have in that area and thus help erase the "well, xbox doesn't make that type of game so I'm not going to make if for them" menality. It's all about gaining inertia. More rare-esque games will come to Xbox if at least a few rare-esque games are actually on the system to begin with. Especially if they're made by (gasp) Rare.

As for the other debate, I believe in genre theory not demographic theory. Certain demographic sections will be drawn toward certain games. The more games you have in a certain genre for a system the more likely you are to have a corresponding age group following, not because you are programming for that group alone but for the genre that they happen to come along in. And its not a 1:1 correlation either because a demographic's interests may change with the generations entering into it.

I never said it isn't potentially the right thing for MS to do by attepting to expand their userbase beyond sports games, FPS and fighters.

My main point is that the risk involved for Rare as a functioning profit generating business is incredibily high. Rule #1 of making profits in the gaming industry is franchises. Sure Rare has a few franchises that they can take with them and they might have the talent to create new franchises, but a large chunk of this company's earnings were due to Nintendo franchises.

When considering:

(1) loss of Nintendo franchises
(2) lack of market in the xbox userbase for family friendly games

The risk involved is HUGE.

The Stampers will get their money, but there is a high chance that they are selling everyone still at RareWare down the river. No wonder so much talent fled that sinking ship.

 

[lurker]

Damn, BryanB, did you work for Rare? Going to Microsoft is a lot different than going to the slaughterhouse. Bigger backing bucks, in a good company, mean bigger paychecks.

"Look at the pathetic xbox. A quality game like Jet Set Radio Future only sold 75K. "

And nobody calls him a fanboy...(though, being new, I'm not sure if that's a "dirty" word which would be censored)

I have many consoles (though I never really became a rabid gamer before the DC. Why? Because it was one hell of a step up from what was available at the time.) I never bought a PS2, partially because I thought that Sony was screwing me for yet another multitap etc, and because I saw that the DC did better (in my opinion) with PS1 games and BLEEM than PS2 did. That didn't sit right with me. For me to shell out another $400 bucks, it had to be another BIG step up. I have enjoyed a few PS2 games at a friends house, but never anything to make me buy one. That's just me. But to guage a consoles quality by sales like the aforementioned gentleman is to say that NSYNC are Lyrical geniuses because people buy them.

Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Lotus, BMW, Ducati, Bimota MAICO. None of them sell as well as your average dodge, but none can be considered failures. They each perform thier intended tasks better than most of the competition. For someone to regard the Xbox as "pathetic" due to lack of sales when compared to a MUCH (percentage-wise) lower priced and better known brand name(s) only demonstrates to me that they are one of those folks which are led by the media.

Perhaps JSRF would have sold a lot better on the GC. It would probably seen at least ONE commercial, and it's user base seems starved (that's just my opinion, the non-DC/PS2/Xbox titles seem sparse and again "IN MY OPINION" not worth a squirt of piss.) I considered a GC when RE was announced, and then I saw it running. Don't get me wrong, GC is certainly a next gen machine, which is what demonstrated to me just how bad pre-rendered backgrounds are. I lost interest at that point. Then a game-play video of Metroid was on the net, and again I regained my GC woody, but a few of days ago I saw (to be fair, probably an early build) demo vid running at the local EB on the GC, and it came nowhere near exciting.

I wouldn't mind buying one, as soon as they show me something that really pulls my skirt up, so to speak. They haven't yet. I know PS2 has a few "must-play" titles, but the Xbox has turned me into a bit of a graphics whore. I can put that aside, as I did when MOH2 for PS1 came available to me. The Xbox was powered down for weeks. No GC game has had that effect on me.

To a guy who plays games A LOT to kill the off-time on rotating shift, the GC seems filled with a lot of PC party games, and a couple of games which could find thier equivalent on another machine. To say that those who don't dig SSBM/MonkeyBall/Pikmin/whatever are teenage geeks who feel "larger" by playing a game with blood to spare: I watched Pocahontas, but got far more enjoyment from Raging Bull. Yes, we play games, and we watch movies, but it's the story that keeps us there to the end. Maybe even gets us go go through it a second or third time

To those who believe that sales give a measure of quality:

Eat $#!T, 50 Billion flys can't be wrong!

 

[zurich]

Nice post, and welcome aboard.

Unfotunately, consoles aren't quite like cars (despite me and my BMW Z3box).

Sales fuel company revenues, company revenues fuel (quality) game development, quality games fuel sales.

So thus, a console that lacks in sales ultimately falls prey to subpar software and shorter life spans.

Not something I plunked down a few hundred for.

zurich

 

[Ozymandis]

Actually Jet Set Radio Future sold over 100K worldwide

 

[wazoo]

Oh, come on, that´s just rubbish.

Pikmin is far from being a "mature" game. It´s a very simple RTS game, a "watered down" one if you like. You compare an action game, where thinking is not the main objective in the game, to a simple RTS...sounds fair to me. Want a mature one? Go play Starcraft now, or westwood´s RTS games.

Do not talk about a game you never touched. It would be made by Square, it would be godlike to you.

Beside, playing Pikmin the hard way (in 9 days) requires more thinking than many games.

 

[RaolinDarksbane]

Making those comments leads me to believe that you never even touched Pikmin and AC. Pikmin does require thinking, it requires you to think how you would do things like manage your Pikmins. And I doubt there are many 10 year olds who has the patience to play a game like AC and actually takes the time to read the text involved. All the pre-teens I know would have skipped past the text and then ask me how to play the game later.

At least give those games some decent playing before making those lame ass comments. I at least played Max Payne before comparing it. As for comparison, I said challenges and intelligence is also a part of making a game mature, and I gave the reasons why.... I wouldn't even made the comparison in the first place if someone here hadn't done it.

 

[Ozymandis]

I've played Pikmin. I bought it when it came out, and didn't like it so I returned it. Then I rented it a month ago to give it a second try.

I stand by my "RTS for kids" comment. The game does take thinking, but it's oversimplified compared to other games in the genre. Not to mention it relies too heavily on platformer and puzzle elements.

Basically the game was flawed, and I didn't enjoy it. While the game has its good points, mainly the charming and original presentation, it's another good example of how Nintendo "appeals to everyone"

 

[lurker]

Nice post, and welcome aboard.

Unfotunately, consoles aren't quite like cars (despite me and my BMW Z3box).

Sales fuel company revenues, company revenues fuel (quality) game development, quality games fuel sales.

So thus, a console that lacks in sales ultimately falls prey to subpar software and shorter life spans.

Not something I plunked down a few hundred for.

zurich

Thank you for the welcome, expected an immediate flame.

As much as I'd hate to start my second post with a differing opinion, consoles are much like cars/bikes/ any consumer good, I used cars and bikes because they are the easiest to visualise. Many outside forces affect sales (brand loyalty, performance statistics, consumer opinion, tariffs, etc.), but the one deciding factor in market dominance in any field seems to be public opinion. Europeans make many a whoop-ass car that will never see pavement on this side of the ocean, because thier manufacturers kbow that Americans/Canadians/Mexicans/Columbians etc. will say "Peugeot 205 Ti16, what the hell is that?". How many of your acquintances can pick a Lancia Stratos out of a line-up(assuming that you're from my side of the lake)? MAICO has created perhaps the world's nastiest motocrosser, but few on this side will ever know (750cc 2 stroke!?! F\/<|<!!!).

I would agree with your statement that lack in software sales equals a shorter lifespan if we we discussing a company with less spare cash than MS, but MS has the cash to ride out a bad gen (not that it is, but it has yet to see Xbox live, which is what the console was built for. Consider the Xbox as we have it. It is the LeCar to the R5 turbo. So much more is (seems to be) coming, but so far it's in a not universally appealing package).

I agree wholeheartedly that the games up to now have been for the most part crap. I've bought a lot of Xbox games and kept only a few. Halo will never leave my shelf, and Rallisport, JSRF, Outlaw golf, Sega GT and a couple of others are there to keep it company permanently. A lot of others were good enough for 1 play-through (blood Omen, PGR, Munch etc), but not worth keeping the dust off of after that. Turok was a steaming pile. Everyone said "wait until the 3rd chapter", so I did, then I enjoyed 3 chapters after that and said "screw this." I started using cheats just so I could see if the story got better before I returned it. It never did. I reiterate, a steaming pile.

Morrowind has lost my interest, too slow for my tastes so that goes back next. I have played through every level but the last in Halo at least 40 times, but I'll always keep it for Co-Op (Why the He11 don't more games have this!?!) and Rallisport/Hunter: The Reckoning rules for 4 player, JSRF I keep just because it really is a piece of art that happens to be fun to play. Dead to Rights, Prisoner of War and their ilk I won't waste cash on. PS2 doesn't deserve the name "Ruinstation" due to it's hardware, but it gets it from the Devs who do sweet FA to produce a quality product. I bought Blood Omen because I knew the story would be good, graphics aside. Those graphics look pretty freakin' good compared to DTR and POW.

That's where the problem lies. If DEVs can sell $#!T as gold on the Xbox, then nobody is pressured to improve. If said Devs sell LIKE $#!T on the Xbox, nobody will develop. There is no way that you could convince me that SEGA devs couldn't have made GT look better than a game from some ex-asian porn distributors (Bunkasha)if they tried. I am nowhere near a programmer, but I see that there is a PANT-LOAD more going on in wreckless at a time than in SEGA GT, and it's going on smoother too. SEGA GT (for an example again) has what, 6 cars on a track, with 2D crowds, next to zero going on in the background (2D F'in' trees!!!), and there are sections in Wreckless where you can see 2 way traffic miles in the distance. GT has none of this, none of the polish, none of the speed, and none of the damage.

I love Sega GT, it's the only game I'm playing right now, but I know that somethings missing. As I say, I'm waiting for LIVE, but from what has been shown to me, SEGA devs blew thier wad on the DC like Tarantino did on Pulp Fiction. There seems to be little left of any value. HOTD3? take me off the freakin' rails already, Why can't player 2 drive something while player 1 shoots(Halo spoiled me)? I look forward to the SGT add-ons, Panzer dragoon, but that's it. None of thier games thrill me anymore. I loved Shenmue on DC, it was almost like religion. Shenmue II, i got to the third disk and shut it off. I want to see the end of the story, but have no patience for the slowdown and incessant cut-scenes. I've rambled WAY more than long enough, see you on LIVE when I get there.

Lurker

 

[wazoo]

I've played Pikmin. I bought it when it came out, and didn't like it so I returned it. Then I rented it a month ago to give it a second try.

You have every right to dislike the game, especially if you gave it a try.

I stand by my "RTS for kids" comment. The game does take thinking, but it's oversimplified compared to other games in the genre. Not to mention it relies too heavily on platformer and puzzle elements.

how a game can be aimed for kids and reliying too much on puzzles ??

Basically the game was flawed, and I didn't enjoy it. While the game has its good points, mainly the charming and original presentation, it's another good example of how Nintendo "appeals to everyone"

Since you did not talk on how it was flawed for you, difficult to comment.

 

[zurich]

Lurker,

Sega GT was awesome. It was very much watered down compared to GT3, but the Xbox controller with its two triggers just made it soooo much fun to play (in the 2 days I rented it, I souped me up a 465hp Lancer Evo 6.5, and eventually passed it up for a 750hp Ford Concept GT). Too bad DiCE didnt license the Rallisport engine to WOW... If you asked me, the game screamed DC code base. There really isnt any excuse for not bumpmapping the track in an Xbox racer...

I can only afford to buy 2 games a month, max. This month goes to Kingdom Hearts without a second thought, and the screaming Gundam f*nboy in me wins out with Federation vs Zeon

zurich

 

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

I guess when Disney makes films, they don't target the kiddies too. I guess it's all just *family fun*. I guess that's why you'd pick "Snow White" over "Lord of the Rings" anyday when you visit a cinema. I mean, Snow White is just such family fun!

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Lurker

Your thoughts echo my own. Smilebit is the only Sega developer that is not underachieving right now, with the possible exception of Visual Concepts (given that they have so many platforms to code).

Crazy Taxi 3 was a disgrace. Sega GT 2002 should have had better graphics and more tracks (amazing game though). Shenmue 2 is a lacklustre port with barely any improvements. Sonic Adventure 2 was a quick port (and now their going back to Sonic Adventure 1?). Sega needs to get their act together.

Xbox is great. The addition of Rare will make it even better. MS will spend the money they have to for quality titles on the system. The Xbox is very important to Microsoft's future.