Range of graphics effects in console games *spawn

[Laa-Yosh]

Notice the texel density on Drake's neck and straps, and also how sharp the lines are on the girl's shirt:

Since it's not a first person game, you can't get that close in game, and they can probably use a smaller MIP map level (which means 1/4 memory use). Probably another reason for the differences...

 

[Neb]

Laa-Yosh I'm sorry dude but I've not seen any other console game apart from KZ3 that can get close to Crysis models..

Ehh maybe texture wise though I disagree but overall no chance. The shading and overall detail is well beyond.

Btw here is a pic of same soldier but zoomed in with sniper scope (highest sniper scope zoom value) for very close texture detail view.
http://www.abload.de/img/texc706.jpg

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Wrong. Where in those shots does the cloth texture look like a pixelated mess (like KZ3's)? Crysis is using a high resolution base and detail mapping.

It's funny that the "pixelated mess" is helping people think the textures in KZ3 are much closer to Crysis (PC) textures. Every developer should use that "pixelated mess" in the near future. I'll watch for it's implementation.

Yes. Generic patterns using UV tiling (repeating) and maybe some masks to avoid putting them on everything.

It's incredible. It should be used more.

Art direction mostly; other art guys might not prefer to paste tiled textile patterns on everything.
KZ3 is probably only resorting to it because they were unable to increase the texture budget per character from KZ2, but there's a lot of close-ups in cinematics and because of the melée killing moves and the lack of resolution would be disturbing. Especially on NPCs who have relatively large face textures in the cinematics.

Also, I'm not sure how costly it is to render multiple texture passes for characters. I'd guess it's only the normal maps that have a detail texture on top and color/spec is unaffected but it's still more expensive computationally than using a higher res texture.

Why wouldn't KZ3 not be able to increase the texture budget per character from KZ2? They were only using 297MB(101MB system memory and 196MB video memory) for all of KZ2, according to the dev PS3 screen in a video documentary. Plus, they had to hold the entire level in memory. On top of that, RSX is suppose to be capable of more texture reads than Xenos per clock. How does that make Xenos more capable of better textures in the first place? I wouldn't mind believing you, but your explanation just doesn't add up.

Already posted a Reach shot; I think you can google Gears 2 and Uncharted 2 yourself...

Yeah, they don't look as good on the characters. I'm far from alone in this observation.

It probably does, they also have a very good LOD system and the impostor system as well to conserve memory.

If they are streaming textures from the disc; how could they possibly stream more than a BD and HDD?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Btw here is a pic of same soldier but zoomed in with sniper scope (highest sniper scope zoom value) for very close texture detail view.
http://www.abload.de/img/texc706.jpg

That's a detail map overlayed on the base color/normal texture, too.

 

[Neb]

That's a detail map overlayed on the base color/normal texture, too.

Yep, correct. It's noticable but color texture still has decent res so it doesn't stand out to much.

EDIT: Patsu, do you work as a sales man/woman for TV shop?

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Am I not asking legitimate tech questions? *shrugs shoulders*

 

[L. Scofield]

It's funny that the "pixelated mess" is helping people think the textures in KZ3 are much closer to Crysis (PC) textures. Every developer should use that "pixelated mess" in the near future. I'll watch for it's implementation.

Only you think that. Detail mapping is nothing new, but works better with a high resolution color texture (like Crysis) instead of a low resolution color texture (KZ3, pixelated)

Yeah, they don't look as good on the characters. I'm far from alone in this observation.

More people agreeing with you doesn't mean you're right.

 

[patsu]

I beg to defer.

I stoped chasing down almight's posts because I realized that it's his preference. Last year, when we voted for our own best looking game, I placed KZ2 above U2 myself. It doesn't surprised me that he put KZ3 above U2. But I'm surprised he said U2 looks horrid.

While some of the textures in a game (any game) may be low/lower res, they make space for other techniques and subsystems. Overall, it can still be pleasing to the eyes, or even look better than a game that use high res textures throughout.

If high res asset is the only thing that determines mess/non-mess, then our eyes should not see ugly things (in real life) at all. There are clearly other factors at play.

From a tech standpoint, we should be able to discuss these techniques without bringing in personal preferences. e.g., Using a low caliber technique in certain game may be a winning formula in the end. A low caliber mundane technique can be implemented or integrated in a variety of ways. That may be interesting too. e.g., MLAA is just edge detect and blend.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Thanks for the info, Laa-Yosh. I appreciate it.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Notice the texel density on Drake's neck and straps, and also how sharp the lines are on the girl's shirt:

Since it's not a first person game, you can't get that close in game, and they can probably use a smaller MIP map level (which means 1/4 memory use). Probably another reason for the differences...

Ok, I still think Uncharted 2 is the best looking game this gen, but what the hell is happening to Drake's neck in that pic?!

 

[Nesh]

Maybe you should read again an notice the "middleground' comment. It's clear it is not worst case.

'
Not worst case, but not "middle" either :smile:

 

[corduroygt]

More people agreeing with you doesn't mean you're right.

When it's about a subjective factor such as visuals, he's right and you're wrong when more people agree with him.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

When it's about a subjective factor such as visuals, he's right and you're wrong when more people agree with him.

Nah, it just means that it shouldn't be ignored/brushed off. When you have numbers with you, questions usually need to be properly addressed.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Ok, I still think Uncharted 2 is the best looking game this gen, but what the hell is happening to Drake's neck in that pic?!

He needs a tape up?

 

[L. Scofield]

When it's about a subjective factor such as visuals, he's right and you're wrong when more people agree with him.

There's nothing subjective about the resolution of KZ3's textures vs Crysis's. One is low res, the other is not

Also, in subjective matters, it's absolutely irrelevant how many people agree or disagree with you since by definition, an opinion is completely idiosyncratic.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Only you think that. Detail mapping is nothing new, but works better with a high resolution color texture (like Crysis) instead of a low resolution color texture (KZ3, pixelated)

I'm still looking for the pixelation. Can you help me by circling these areas? I don't mean circle the whole thing either.

4x better textures is still a pixelated mess, huh? People were saying the textures in KZ2 were a mixture of high-rez textures and low-rez textures. Now, they are all a low-rez pixelated mess or the character texture budget probably couldn't be raised for KZ3, huh? To be true, wouldn't that have to mean GG's lied about having 4x better texture? I'm just asking.

More people agreeing with you doesn't mean you're right.

It doesn't mean I'm wrong either. Two sides of the same coin, my friend. However, the one with the greater numbers usually win.

 

[kagemaru]

So this would be the third thread I've opened today that has a Crysis and KZ talk. 0_o

 

[Scott_Arm]

Well, what does 4x better actually mean? We tend to avoid PR talk around here, because "better" is a highly subjective word that would really cause a discussion about semantics, more than anything. Is it 4x the texture resolution? After reading Laa-Yosh's posts, which channel or layer would they be referring to? Is that at the expense of variety, or are there more textures? So, that part of the discussion is probably best left untouched.

As for low resolution textures, you can see some lower resolution spots that are blurred on the right shoulder and on the right arm. There is obviously a higher resolution detail texture with the weave pattern that, to me, creates a pretty nice look up close. I think the lower resolution base texture is more apparent in screenshots like this one

Look at his elbow, the detailing on his left pocked, the dark lines that separate the white trim from his brown coat, and the detailing on the pieces on his belt. His face is very obviously textures at a much higher resolution than his clothing. There is a lot of post-processing, lighting, shadows etc that will mask it, as will those detail textures.

Edit: I always thought those thick black lines were an artistic choice, but after reading Laa-Yosh's posts, it's probably just from using a low resolution base. Still, I think it is a nice looking game.

 

[Nesh]

I'm still looking for the pixelation. Can you help me by circling these areas? I don't mean circle the whole thing either.

4x better textures is still a pixelated mess, huh? People were saying the textures in KZ2 were a mixture of high-rez textures and low-rez textures. Now, they are all a low-rez pixelated mess or the character texture budget probably couldn't be raised for KZ3, huh? To be true, wouldn't that have to mean GG's lied about having 4x better texture? I'm just asking.


It doesn't mean I'm wrong either. Two sides of the same coin, my friend. However, the one with the greater numbers usually win.

All you have to do, assuming that you have the right "eye" and imagination, is to imagine the model without the layer of the normal map on top of the texture. I can see lots of blurred surfaces and texture detail on the particular image. But thats not necessarily bad as its the whole result that matters and it is more pleasing to the eye than other examples. The model design has some good detail.

 

[L. Scofield]

So this would be the third thread I've opened today that has a Crysis and KZ talk. 0_o

They're this season's heavy hitters, it was inevitable