PS3/X360: The possibility to render 95% scene of StarWar EP3

[BigGamer X]

I saw the movie yesterday. (seeing it again tommorrow ) That one scene had so much color, and strange plants/trees, it kinda reminded me of Kameo. 8) ...........on super steriods that is! (that was one of the most impressive scenes I've ever seen, good job GL!)

This is one of the "order 66" scenes.

Maybe PS5 or XBOX 2160 could do it.

 

[handbrake2]

Forget EP3. That's beyond reasonable.

How close to this:

Can we get in real-time today?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I dare say Yes. It's a very simple scene, not much happening.

 

[mckmas8808]

A lot of the small effects in Episode 3 I think are possible on the PS3 in realtime. The thick smoke and some of the fire I think look on par with Killzone and Motostorm. I don't think that the PS3 can produce the whole movie.
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EXTREME VAPORIZER

 

[Laa-Yosh]

It looks on par because they are both prerendered... *censored*

 

[thatdude90210]

Anyone else think Sony overshot the goal with Killzone2? I mean, if it was a little worst, there would at least some doubt, but it's hard to deny looking at the quality that it's pre-rendered.

And the internet is a little more savvy now than when PS2 was released. Various forums with degrees of expertise are all over the place, everything spread faster... instead of like 5 years ago when internet discussion took place more in newsgroups.

People will save clips of that Killzone footage, and when the game comes out, and doesn't look anything like that, the developers are going to be an ongoing joke.

Btw, in 2004, the dev release the so-so looking Killzone, suddenly in 2005 they are beating Sweeney and Carmack... by miles, yeah right.

 

[mckmas8808]

This is Martin Kenwright (the man in charge of Evolution Studios) talks about the demo and further look of MotoStorm.

Displaying an incredible amount of action on-screen, with jaw-dropping damage effects and ridiculous amounts of mud being thrown around, MotorStorm was one of the real highlights of Monday's earth shattering PLAYSTATION 3 unveiling. Showing a variety of vehicles - buggies, motorbikes, quads, coup??s - hammering through a dirty, rocky environment, the level of detail and sheer visceral quality on display was astonishing.

The stringent requirements of producing the Official Game of the World Rally Championship mean that the kind of environments and action on display in he team's PS3 debut has been off limits for some time, and you sense that now the limits are off, we're in for one hell of a ride. Letting slip more details exclusively to PlayStation.com, Martin enthuses about a velodrome-style track that's to be set within the crater of a volcano. "You're right up on the [vertical] sides of the crater," he enthuses, "and you'll have rocks falling past and everything."

Transfer this kind of imagery into your mind's eye having seen Monday's demo, and we're confident in saying even at this early stage that there are going to be some truly amazing scenes in the finished game. And with PS3 not so very far off (we're still pinching ourselves), we hopefully won't have too long to wait before we find out more.

I'm telling you Laa-Yosh the more interviews and chatter that we here from real people working on the PS3 (not some internet blogger's guess or heresay) the more Killzone and MotoStorm look possible. What are you going to think and do IF Killzone and MotoStorm end up looking like the demo?
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FORD FOCUS RS

 

[Acert93]

Btw, in 2004, the dev release the so-so looking Killzone, suddenly in 2005 they are beating Sweeney and Carmack... by miles, yeah right.

The difference is this:

D3 engine was designed with 5-15GFLOPs PC CPUs in mind and DX8 hardware and functionality on DX7 hardware. Open box design, moving hardware target, APIs, etc... and the engine is intended to be ported. The engine was running live over 2 years ago and was powering consumer software almost a year ago.

UE3 is designed, again, around PCs with 10-20GFLOPs of PC CPU performance in mind, with DX9 hardware as the target. If it is slow on a DX9 card (e.g. Radeon 9500) you will need to run off features. Stop an open box design, moving hardware targets, APIs, etc... and the engine is intended to be ported. The engine is running live, now, and will be showing up in games within 12mo.


Killzone is being designed for a closed platform, where every feature can be tweaked and tailored to meet the specific abilities and limitations of the GPU. No need to turn off features, just design to the actual hardware. Clean API and the ability to code to metal. The flexibility of a LOT more system bandwidth than PCs have, and a processor with 200+ GFLOPs performance. And the engine is never intended to be ported. We may not see this game/engine until later 2006, and maybe not even until 2007 or later.

So on that alone we cannot compare. I will take a highly tuned engine on a closed platform from a AAA developer with a lot of technical and artisitc skill over the generic engine. But very few companies have a lot of AAA devs. As for Killzone... read my PR thread. If they do not have the AA, color quality, HDR, particle effects, 1080p, sound, and gameplay they were showing, well, then mkmas8088 is going to mail his PS3 back to Phil Harrison (after he runs it over 10 times with his car of course).

 

[mckmas8808]

well, then mkmas8088 is going to mail his PS3 back to Phil Harrison (after he runs it over 10 times with his car of course).

Damn right. Im just going to take Phil's word. If he doesn't live up people like me will lose faith in Sony and probably walk.
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VAPORIZER VOLCANO

 

[Acert93]

I'm telling you Laa-Yosh the more interviews and chatter that we here from real people working on the PS3 (not some internet blogger's guess or heresay) the more Killzone and MotoStorm look possible. What are you going to think and do IF Killzone and MotoStorm end up looking like the demo?

Every post is beginning to be the same thing. Can you not derail every thread please? Also, nowhere in this comments does he say that the Motor Sport demo is exactly how the game will look at the same quality, framerate, etc... He is pumping his game, but I did not see anything like that. And as the developer of the game of COURSE he is going to pump it. e.g. Factor5's head hauncho really talked up the last RL and how great the ground combat was. Everyone reported it... and it stunk. Killzone was proclaimed the Halo killer... it bombed. VERY FEW companies deliver games that match or exceed the hype. So please stop using developer snippets as some barometer of how great System X will be and the like. Wait for the real games to actually judge them first hand.

This is the end of this public service announcement.

 

[Acert93]

Damn right. Im just going to take Phil's word. If he doesn't live up people like me will lose faith in Sony and probably walk.

Probably walk?

Since you bring this up so often, put your money where your mouth is If you can be so adament to trust him, *if* (not saying he will), but if it is not exactly the same or BETTER, you should get rid of your PS3.

Don't tell me you are going to ride this issue into every thread, and if it comes about you are wrong it will not be a big issue. Big enough to flame everyone and tell them they are wrong, so put the balance on your PS3. If it fails to deliver then you SHOULD be mad!

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Damn right. Im just going to take Phil's word. If he doesn't live up people like me will lose faith in Sony and probably walk.

Probably walk?

Since you bring this up so often, put your money where your mouth is If you can be so adament to trust him, *if* (not saying he will), but if it is not exactly the same or BETTER, you should get rid of your PS3.

Well Phil Harrison said, that Killzone video only scratched the surface of what we'll be seeing, so It has to be atleast 5 times better than what we saw. .

Laa-Yosh I would like to hear your estimate on this:
How much computational power it would require to run Motor Storm and Killzone in realtime at 60fps?. Not just the video, but in actual gameplay, when all the additional things like AI are included.

 

[Acert93]

Laa-Yosh I would like to hear your estimate on this:
How much computational power it would require to run Motor Storm and Killzone in realtime at 60fps?. Not just the video, but in actual gameplay, when all the additional things like AI are included.

I am not sure there is an answer for that.

For example, we are getting close to being able to fake quality close to Toy Story 1. The problem is Toy Story 1 uses ray tracing and other very advanced techniques to get that quality--plus they use post rendered effects to clean up stuff. In realtime we are faking everything and trying to emulate a higher quality than you actually have.

Even if you created a CGI to spec, there will always be small tell tail signs that cannot be completely replicated with realtime hardware (at least not yet). To get 100% the quality in lighting, shadowing, AA, color quality, speed, particles, effects, etc... is asking a lot.

e.g. every piece of mud is a physics object. Current PCs can handle a couple hundred. A PPU can handle 30k-40k. With the smoke, mud, and vehicles (and people!), trees swaying, cars breaking apart and exploading everywhere, I just do not see it happening at 100% quality. Same goes with the smoke. That smoke was probably driven by some type of fuild dynamic rendering engine where there where tens upon tens of thousand "smoke" particles.

But in realtime you can cheat! You are just looking for a similar effect. We can do Toy Story 1 quality scenes on PCs right now, but the second you expose the static lighting or lack of interctivity/flexibility the whole illusion is broken and it becomes clear they are just not the same.

Killzone and Motor Storm may very well look LIKE the video (not going to even get into that); but you cannot compare the power it would take to render that on a CGI farm. Different techniques involved to get different results, even if they are similar in the end.

 

[mckmas8808]

Hey Acert if they don't leave up to their claims yes I will be mad. I totally trusting Phil right now (hope this will not be a mistake) so I will wait for the game to come out. The thing is I honestly want to know if those demos were possible. Thats why I search for interviews by the guys that actually work with the PS3 hardware.

I would also like to say that I'm not some Sony fanboy that can't see the other side of the issue. I totally respect everything Laa-Yosh says so far. I would like to hear what he honestly think about the translated interview by Ken K. If he could give us an honest to god review on the interview my eyes would be glued to his every word.
________
Medical Marijuana Patient

 

[Acert93]

I am just teasing you--we both know there is more to games than graphics. If it fails to materialize be mad for a moment that Sony mislead people, brush it off, and then realize ALL the companies have agendas. Hold them accountable, but don't go running to the other side thinking it will be much better. But since you are trusting him, if he makes you look foolish (IF again, not saying he will), I would show him how you feel with your $.

Been around this block before. No point holding grudges... just wait for the software you want and use your money, your speaking power, to do the talking. I love the tech talk and the like, but I never get too involved in the PR stuff. I just like seeing how the tech makes better games... and when I SEE better games I talk with my $.

 

[jvd]

Why are we talking about killzone again ? The developer who is making the game said it was only a representation . Why hasn't this subject been dropped ?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's become a malignant cancer, I fear. It's the new scourge of the Internet - the Black Death of gaming forums.

We're DOOMED I tell you!

 

[Goragoth]

The problem is Toy Story 1 uses ray tracing

Actually TS1 didn't use raytracing at all, PRMan didn't have raytracing capabilities back then. All reflections are simply reflection maps much like in today's games. Just a nitpick really, your other points were spot on.

Just a note on your previous point about KZ2 being developed just for the PS3 and therefore it should be able to take advantage of the hardware better, maybe true but this generation is going to be all about the tools an engine provides to the artists to make great looking graphics and UE3 has the tools, which I doubt a small developer making an engine in-house will have. I may be entirely wrong on this point but that's how I see it and right now I would predict that KZ2 will not look any better than UE3 based games coming out in the same timeframe.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Here's some final stuff for the Killzone intro, and now I'm officially out of this because it's bad for my mental health.
Read the quoted stuff with the images. If I wasn't so fed up with this I'd add some UE3.0 images to show the difference between normal mapping and zillions of polygons...

http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2311886&postcount=170

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree with that guy's statements, especially the detail. Those wheels are stupidly good. But I will say NURBS can produce no polygonal edges... Do we know what the NURBS capabilities of RSX are?