PS3 'near-final' hardware present at E3
- Thread starter Shifty Geezer
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I'm no expert but what are the "usual graphics features" that the GPU will be handling if the CELL is doing all the things you say. Only thing I can think of is texturing/shadowing/AA and how are you going to efficiently decouple that from shading? Video memory isn't a GPU characteristic so that doesn't count toward the GPU's contribution.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
erick said:
Are you using that page you linked previously as a proof that PS3 will have 4 cell configuration! (about 1 billion transistors) and even going as far as saying that it's well known fact?.
Nothing is set in stone. However, considering that IBM/Sony are advertising CELL as a 'supercomputer-on-a-chip' solution, and everybody in the industry loves nice round numbers ( 1 TERAFLOPS) and a lot of computational power to spare, I would say that the chances of this happening are pretty good.
More so, considering that CELL-s can supposedly be passivley cooled if necessary (operating temperature under load with a heat sink was something like 85 degrees Celsius if I remember correctly) this should not constitute much of a problem if more advanced cooling techniques are employed, such as the liquid cooling that does the trick for XBOX 360.
Also, it is well worth to remember that the average utilisation time of a Playstation console is 5 years. This means that the architecture has to offer plenty of power for games that aren't even released before 4 years after the launch.
If current predictions are worth anything at all, the next big thing will be physics and particle effects with ten's of thousands particles interacting simultaneously. This requires a whole lot of computational power. And I can't even imagine what the physics-related effects will be like in 3 years time.
The last thing is a rumor (and this is why I do not advise anyone to take it dead seriously) that by the estimates of gamesdevelopers PS3 will be about 3 times more powerful than XBOX 360.
EDIT: One thing more: CELL processors can run STREAM PROCESSING, which makes it very easy to add any number of CELLs to those you already have to increase performance near-linearly (it is even claimed that one can make CELL clusters using wireless connection).
What this could mean in essence, is that Sony can sell upgrade modules to it's original console (eg. 2 CELLs in PS3 at launch, with an option to add 2 more by using an upgrade module later down the line).
Maybe that's true but IMHO you should read related threads already discussed in this forum by using Search menu before posting something based on www.blachford.info.erick said:
I predict...you're wrong and completely off targeterick said:
1) A 4 CELLs PS3 would cost way too much
2) too heat
3) too power
4) you don't need a one teraflop machine when your rival tops at 100 Gigaflop/s, you can beat it hands down with much less (even from a marketing point of view)
5) even my grandmother knows PS3 will have just one CELL CPU
This rumour is more serious than a one teraflop PS3
erick
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21081&highlight=cell
CELL has been discussed thoroughly here, even that article you have posted.
Speng.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21081&highlight=cell
CELL has been discussed thoroughly here, even that article you have posted.
Speng.
I have the privilege of making mistakes as I am still considered a n00b
This may not be the case, since 90nm process is relatively cheap, also there has been talk to moving to an even smaller process (60nm?). If this were to happen, it will probably take place a while after the launch though.
If you mean 'too much computing power', then certainly no. But if you mean electricity, then you are right, this might well be a limitation.
Never underestimate the power of a good marketing figure. This is why we will have GeForce 6200 cards with 512MB of video memory, although no one except the marketing squad can see ANY sense in it.
However in the case of CELL this would not be wasted power. Sure, it would take a few years before the developers could use it to the max, but it would be worth it in my opinion.
You have a knowledgable grandmother. Very commendable, keeping abreast of the newest developments in such old age
This may not be the case, since 90nm process is relatively cheap, also there has been talk to moving to an even smaller process (60nm?). If this were to happen, it will probably take place a while after the launch though.
Heat problems are something that is not a major issue when talking about CELL. I mean, if it really can run on passive cooling, then using more advanced solutions (perhaps some compact and simple version of primitive but effective phase change cooling, the likes of which have been released for CPU-s, if liquid cooling is too complex).
If you mean 'too much computing power', then certainly no. But if you mean electricity, then you are right, this might well be a limitation.
Never underestimate the power of a good marketing figure. This is why we will have GeForce 6200 cards with 512MB of video memory, although no one except the marketing squad can see ANY sense in it.
However in the case of CELL this would not be wasted power. Sure, it would take a few years before the developers could use it to the max, but it would be worth it in my opinion.
5) even my grandmother knows PS3 will have just one CELL CPU
You have a knowledgable grandmother. Very commendable, keeping abreast of the newest developments in such old age
4 cell chips would cost a bundle on 90nm and depending on the set up on each chip it can have very very very bad yields . A 2x16 for example would mean each cell chip would be 500mm each. That is double the x360 cpu and that is each cell chip. a 1x8 would be about the same size as the x360 about 250mm but there would still be 4 of them to the 1 in the x360
err if you said 85c that is currently twice that of what my athlon 64 runs at and it has a massive heat sink in it . . Now 85f i can agree. Even if we get a passive cooling system . It wont be passive if there are 4 of these to cool + ram + gpu in a small box the size of the ps2 or smaller
The board makers making the 6200 cards are making a profit though. . Sony will be loosing tons of money hand over fist per system sold .
Lets say in 2005 a x360 cpu costs 50$ and in 2006 when the ps3 launches it still costs 50$ and a cell chip costs the same . That means sony will be spending 200$ on just the 4 cpus . Then there is still the gpu , the ram , the bluray player , a hdd , ethernet jack , a sound chip unless the cell chips will do it .
Of course it will be a waste . 1 tflop from just the cpu alone will get wasted. First it would cost sony alot of money second it will cost devs alot of money to develop games for it .
Not to mention that if devs just start to tap the power of the ps3 in say 3 years. Ms will be on its 4th year and ready to bring out a new system that will be more powerfull than the ps3 . Much more powerfull and sony will have to responed in kind and thus the power gets wasted.
This is what i believe will happen
cell cpu 1x8 3 ghz -3.5 ghz 200gflops to 250gflops . Roughly twice the power of the x360 gpu
gpu will be 700mhz most likely close to the performance of the x360gpu . perhaps 20-30% faster in most areas
256 megs of rambus xdr ram with 40 gb of bandwidth
40 gig hardrive
1x bluray drive
With sony loosing about 100-150$ per system sold .
Nirey said:Posted March 24, 2005 by Jaws:
Jaws said:
PS3? Custom logic part of NV5x?
Distributed rendering? Harddisk?
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Posted May 14, 2005 by Jaws:
Jaws said:Jaws said:
Axider said:The Xbox360 has his GPU. The PS"3" got his GPU and a little help..
I see PS"3" chips...hmmm...does this deserve a wink?
Also is the "little help"...a "chaperone"...?
Please add 'winks' where appropriate!
Jaws, you have been the closest one so far
remeber this: http://www.research.scea.com/research/pdfs/la-siggraph-panel_2001_DOM.pdf
Okay, I hear ya...
You know by endorsing this will mean that people here will be skeptical...so I hope you're right in the next few days for all our sakes!
Btw, those posts got wiped at PSInext when their servers went down in March...
I'd be very surprised to see an HD. Pleasantly surprised, but surprised nontheless.jvd said:
Nah... How can anyone be skeptical about Nirey claims?Jaws said:
Everybody here knows that he's legit. How else could he links us to the Sony's E3 official, and public, site and claim that he owned us if he wasn't 100% legit.
By the way, this pre-E3 has a serious impact on the threads.
I mean, I read this whole 5 pages thread and, as soon as, the second pages the whole thing went south. I don't even know what was the point of the whole discussion after the first page... Some people being banned on an another forum... A 16 TeraFlops CPU with 1GB of eDRAM (I'll take two, please, BTW)... The whole Blachford stuff, Part Deux...
Vysez said:Nah... How can anyone be skeptical about Nirey claims?Jaws said:
Everybody here knows that he's legit. How else could he links us to the Sony's E3 official, and public, site and claim that he owned us if he wasn't 100% legit.
By the way, this pre-E3 has a serious impact on the threads.
I mean, I read this whole 5 pages thread and, as soon as, the second pages the whole thing went south. I don't even know what was the point of the whole discussion after the first page... Some people being banned on an another forum... A 16 TeraFlops CPU with 1GB of eDRAM (I'll take two, please, BTW)... The whole Blachford stuff, Part Deux...
Personally speaking, I'm just gonna lay back and chill and take in all the info. And indeed there are some hilarious threads mixed in with some serious ones...
But this bizzarro ambience only comes around once every 5 years or so...so we should all make the most of it an enjoy it for what it is!