[PS3] Demon Souls

[patsu]

Yet another Demon's Souls analysis/lecture:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26786/Analysis_Assassins_Vs_Demons__A_Good_Place_To_Die.php

In a Gamasutra analysis piece, writer/professor Michael Abbott draws from his recent experiences with Assassin's Creed II and Demon's Souls to contrast the effects of realistic environments versus artist-conceived backdrops.

It talks about how DS created an immersive environment. The comments are interesting too.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Yet another Demon's Souls analysis/lecture:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26786/Analysis_Assassins_Vs_Demons__A_Good_Place_To_Die.php

It talks about how DS created an immersive environment. The comments are interesting too.

I didn't find that analysis particularly interesting. I understand what he's talking about. There is a difference between having a backdrop and an environment to be immersed in. I just don't understand why Demon Soul's is any different than Assassin's Creed 2, in that regard, having played both. Assassin's Creed 2 is an incredibly easy game, so far, and I think if it had steep penalties for dieing he'd feel just as stressed and "immersed" while leaping from rooftop to rooftop. The environment itself is not the difference so much as the difficulty and penalties in the game. In theory, I agree with what he's saying, even though the analysis isn't particularly deep.

 

[patsu]

The environment itself is not the difference so much as the difficulty and penalties in the game.

He's just saying the DS environment is "active". It works on you as much as the bosses and grunts, hence it's not trivialized or forgettable. It's not just the difficulty because the sound, visual, danger/traps, unexpected events, activated shortcuts, special loots, integrated multiplayer interactions all combined to form a very unique experience + architecture for each world.

It's a simple and subtle concept, but very well executed.

The difficulty of the game is yet another dynamics: Great reward vs high risk/difficulty.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I just think it's the death penalties and difficulty that makes the environment stressful. You worry about hidden traps, visibility etc because you're really worried about dieing. What I meant was, the environment in Assassin's Creed 2 would seem just as meaningful if you were really worried about dieing. If you died from a realistic fall, or if you could only be hit once or twice before dieing, and if the combat was much more difficult etc, all of the obstacles would be very stressing, if you're the type that gets stressed over a game. You'd be worried about missing jumps, falling, getting cornered, getting knocked over in crowds and the shouts of guards might cause you to panic. The actual design of the levels and atmosphere is actually fairly standard or normal nowadays, for both games. Demon Souls has multiplayer, which is obviously a unique implementation, and the whole light-dark thing.

I'm not knocking Demon Souls. I think it's a pretty good game. I also think Assassin's Creed 2 is good, but not one of my favourites. I just didn't agree with the analysis.

 

[patsu]

The reason I said it's not just the difficulty because it's more than that.

The worlds embodied different fears (not difficulty). e.g., claustrophobic, achluophobic, acrophobic, iophobic, autophobic, fear for losing souls, etc. The developers weaved these feelings into the world design. Even now, I still remember myself hugging against the World 4 cliffside for dear life (I could almost feel my hands turning cold with the virtual wind). Is it difficult to pass the stage ? Nope, not with a Thief Ring. It felt more difficult than it really was.

The embeded multiplayer elements exaggerated those feelings even more (e.g., co-op partners who cannot talk, %$*)%$( invaders, the white "ghosts" who seem to lunged towards you occasionally, player messages that could be truth or lies).

In addition, the sound is surprisingly effective in the DS world. I love the prisoners' wail and the woman's singing in the World 3 prison.

All these environmental elements contribute to the Demon's Souls world. The pressure is constant. Even in the Nexus, you have to worry about hitting the vendors accidentally. Is it difficult in the Nexus ? Nope.

The DS worlds are memorable because you have to stay alert and watch out for the tiniest details. I don't think this feeling is standard in other games. Not at all. The game is not difficult technically; but a lot of time, it stresses you out and makes you think that it's more difficult than it really is.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I guess I just don't get as emotionally involved in games as you or that writer. I see nothing out of the ordinary in either game, in terms of atmosphere or attempts at immersion. I just think Demon Souls is more difficult than is the norm nowadays, and that creates a certain level of stress that would be present in Assassin's Creed 2, if it were to offer the same difficulty and penalties for death.

 

[patsu]

It's an observation among Demon's Souls fans, more than just me and that writer. That's why I'm interested to see the comments in that article. It is not uncommon to find DS reviews that raved at the atmosphere and level design of the game, despite the difficulty.

I suspect you'll see some of these elements in other games and online services in the future.

EDIT: I'd agree that AC2 is a different game (e.g., It is set in Florence) and cannot really be compared together. But the point is DS's environment is as influential as the bosses and grunts in the game. It demands player attention too.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I just don't understand what elements you're talking about? The way they did the multiplayer is definitely unique. I'm sure it will be copied/expanded upon, but that really doesn't change anything about how I feel when I play the game, how immersive it is or how "active" the environment is.

There's nothing unique about the sound, the design, the interactivity with the environments, the combat or anything. It is a good sum of its parts, but the innovation is really just the return of extreme and unforgiving penalties, like in old school games. If you were to take away the death penalties, and the quick deaths, you'd have a pretty standard hack'n slash rpg with a neat multiplayer mechanic on top.

I'm sure there are a lot of people that absolutely love it for what it is. I know some people that rave about Assassin's Creed 2, but it is not spectacular to me.

 

[patsu]

I just don't understand what elements you're talking about? The way they did the multiplayer is definitely unique. I'm sure it will be copied/expanded upon, but that really doesn't change anything about how I feel when I play the game, how immersive it is or how "active" the environment is.

On multiplayer, have you been invaded before ? Most people dread invasion. It certainly freaked me out the first time. It is the most nerve wrecking gaming experience I have ever had to date.

The white ghosts of other players made a few of us jumped.

The player messages, silent co-op partners made us feel lonely in this sense:

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9011722
"I've heard that the inspiration for the online component came about when one of the designers was stranded on a mountain road during a snowstorm. He was eventually freed by a few anonymous rescuers, and he later found himself wondering about who they were."

... and whether they made it out safely too. This is exactly how I felt after a co-op before I read that interview.

In the end it boils down to game and level design. The individual elements are not new, just like shading is not new. But the integrated environment is able to draw out emotion from the players.

There's nothing unique about the sound, the design, the interactivity with the environments, the combat or anything. It is a good sum of its parts, but the innovation is really just the return of extreme and unforgiving penalties, like in old school games.

See above. Innovation is not atomic. Difficulty is not the only lesson here. For what it's worth, the producer said they focused on creating sense of triumph for the players. Difficulty is only one way to do it.

If you were to take away the death penalties, and the quick deaths, you'd have a pretty standard hack'n slash rpg with a neat multiplayer mechanic on top.

I don't think that's fair. The combat is definitely more than standard hack'n slash affair like Diablo, Romance of the Three Kingdom, etc. It requires careful observation and execution. Otherwise, where is the difficulty you mentioned ?

As for the environment, you're missing the atmosphere (The good sum of its parts).

 

[DrJay24]

but the innovation is really just the return of extreme and unforgiving penalties, like in old school games.

Of course you are ignoring all the real innovations. The unique co-op and PvP (blue, black and red phantoms). The red blood stains, player left messages, white phantoms. I have not found the game very hard, due to o-op help, but the innovation still stands out IMO.

 

[Carl B]

It's ok if you don't love the game Scott, we forgive you. Not everyone is going to love it of course, how could they? But for me it definitely may be my 2009 highlight.

Patsu, as for you...

...Romance of the Three Kingdoms...

If you're talking that Dynasty Warriors nonsense... but RotK is one of the finest strategy franchises in the world!

Oh Romance of the Three Kingdoms... when will you have a PS3 release?

 

[2real4tv]

Just finished the game a couple days ago. Man that King Alliant was a pain. Had a wierd glitch happen where there were three blue phantoms for a total of four of us....lol. Was a little disappointed by the end boss fight

Spoiler

was preparing for a epic fight because the opening was so beautiful but it ended up being a push over

. Started NG+ and was invaded immediately and lost because I wasn't prepared...lol great game and was my GOTY for 2009. I hope other devs that produce games similiar to this adapt some of the multiplayer aspects.

 

[patsu]

If you're talking that Dynasty Warriors nonsense... but RotK is one of the finest strategy franchises in the world!

Oh Romance of the Three Kingdoms... when will you have a PS3 release?

Yeah, I was talking about the Dynasty Warrior game.

EDIT:
Demon's Souls has been nominated for Game of the Year in GDC 2010:
http://www.gdconf.com/news/gdc/unch...lopersConference+(Game+Developers+Conference)

Game Of The Year
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (Naughty Dog)
Dragon Age: Origins (BioWare)
Batman: Arkham Asylum (Rocksteady Studios)
Demon's Souls (From Software)
Assassin's Creed II (Ubisoft Montreal)

 

[patsu]

Demon's Souls Deluxe Edition raised as high as $116:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/30/video-game-price-charts-reveal-biggest-resale-prices-of-2009/

I should have bought 2 copies.

VideoGamePriceCharts.com, a site that tracks average online prices for video games and consoles, has released its year-end report for 2009, and if you were buying and selling games speculatively (we all do that, right?), you'll want to check it out. Okay, so maybe you weren't picking up the now-discontinued Demon's Souls Deluxe Edition because you hoped it would get rare, but if so, you're in luck: That game topped the list, raising in value from an MSRP of $69.99 up to a high of $116. Grand Theft Auto IV's Lost and Damned retail box (which contained a code for the DLC) is another big collector's item, and if you were so lucky as to nab a copy of Bass Pro Shops' The Strike (with Fishing Rod) for Xbox 360, then reel in the money, because it raised in value over 50%.

 

[patsu]

Update on the replacement guides for DS Deluxe version:
http://playstation.joystiq.com/2010/02/05/demons-souls-replacement-guides-ship-next-week/

Atlus has announced that the replacement guides will begin shipping this Monday, February 8. Late last year, after discovering that many Demon's Souls collector's edition guides had "unusual cover ink wear / fading" problems, Atlus opened a replacement program.

 

[patsu]

Attention new Demon Soul's adventurer:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/02/06/atlus-lets-you-pick-your-special-v-day-event-in-demons-souls/

Atlus is allowing players to vote on the special event which will overtake its hard-as-hell RPG Demon's Souls on Valentine's Day -- will it be the easy-going White Tendency which appeared during the holiday season? Or the extra difficult Black Tendency which destroyed players on Halloween? Only you, and your either loving or jilted heart, can decide.

Vote here

 

[patsu]

Demon's Souls 2 rumor:
http://kotaku.com/5468419/demons-souls-2-hints

a podcast from Japanese gaming news source Dengeki hints that a sequel for a challenging and hard game released last year would be coming out this fall. The game is said to have very "interesting" gameplay systems. Sounds like... Demon's Souls!

Word on the street is that Sony signed a first look deal if developer From Software made a sequel. The game is a PS3 exclusive and Sony Computer Entertainment published the title in Japan. Apparently, From Software was relentless in its refusal to bend to Sony's suggestions to change game play, save system and make the title easier. Rumor has it that nobody thought the game was going to be the sleeper hit it eventually became, which is why Atlus, not Sony, distributed the game in North America.

 

[patsu]

Demon's Souls going both black and white world tendency this weekend:
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/02/12/demons-souls-world-tendency-fades-to-white-then-black/

Pure white world tendency starts today and goes until Tuesday, February 16. Pure black world tendency starts on Wednesday and runs until the week ends. When the world is pure white new paths open up and healing items are more common. Black phantoms and primeval demons carrying precious colorless demon’s souls show up when the world turns black.

 

[Yemeth]

patsu, thanks alot for keeping us all up to date. I do not read all those gaming portals, so I take your hard work and just read this thread .

 

[patsu]

I post because tha_con is slogging through it right now. Always a pleasure to help a lone adventurer build up his gears.