PS2 - Broadband only in the UK

[zurich]

There will always be a market for offline games, _always_, as they're pretty much the only way to tell a focused linear story, star to finish.

However, one only has to look at the PC gaming scene to realize that online gaming has an extreme growth potential. Its just up to developers to discover new genres to take online, other than stagnant FPS/RTSs. (racers are a good example of this)

edit: I think alot of peoples perceptions towards online gaming stems from a 'have'/'have not' scenario.

ie: 'have' cheap fast broadband, like online gaming
'have not' any broadband, skeptical of onling gaming

 

[marconelly!]

However, one only has to look at the PC gaming scene to realize that online gaming has an extreme growth potential.

The way I see it - people who wanted to play online games jumped on PC bandwagon long time ago, and have no reason to leave it.

I dunno... the way I see it, number of Zombie-like folks who are willing to pay for the monthly gaming service so they can spend rest of their life in some alternate game world is *really* limited. Also, the number of people willing to pay monthly for games they'll be playing few hours a week (like most 'casual' gamers actually do), is probably even smaller.

 

[Grall]

It is Sony man, they love the propertiery thingie.

And M$ does not?
PLEASE!











*G*

 

[Nick Laslett]

British Telecom is a monopoly I thought?

The telecoms market in the UK is a free market. There is no monopoly.

BT as the encumbent supplier has a monopoly like market share (70%). But they have to share their infrastructure with the other players in the market by law. Each year their market share reduces.

As a UK Telecoms user I am free to choose from many different suppliers for my Telecoms service.

 

[London Geezer]

YEAH BT is not a monopoly.... Telewest is another company we can choose from for example...

anyway, i thought the UK-broadband-only-thing was old news... i mean, i knew about this AGES ago... what's with the surprise? it was confirmed long ago...

 

[wazoo]

However, one only has to look at the PC gaming scene to realize that online gaming has an extreme growth potential. Its just up to developers to discover new genres to take online, other than stagnant FPS/RTSs. (racers are a good example of this)

That is the true challenge, and I do not expect any revolution coming from the PC-educated western developpers, just some very slick looking highly polished FPS like they have done for years. PC gaming have truely failed to generate new genres.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I'll address a few things:

Vince, your insulting tone is more than a little annoying. Once again, you took my "mental masturbation" comments out of context and took them as an insult but they were directed at Kojima's work and not you. You on the other hand just can't stop with the insults, which the moderators don't seem to mind, but c'est la vie as we say in Canada.

On the issue of Sony's about face: If telecommunications standards were the real issue, then Sony would have known this YEARS ago. They wouldn't have tried to sell the PS2 on the basis of 56k support in the UK like they did. It's a sham argument anyway - the Dreamcast had 56k gaming all throughout Europe. Sony is only going broadband to compete with Xbox Live.

Marconelly, the reason why the hard drive is so critical is that downloadable content is more important to casual gamers than actual online play. The other reason is that updates to the Xbox dashboard are made to the hard drive. It's difficult to have a secure game-independent system without having some way of storing the information on a native storage device that can't be removed from the system. There are many reasons, but these are just a couple off the top of my head.

Wazoo, most gaming genres originated on the PC or on the Atari 2600. Western developed games are dominating their Japanese counterparts in all put a few genres.

 

[wazoo]

Wazoo, most gaming genres originated on the PC or on the Atari 2600.

Games were so crap on the 2600 that it created the big crash of 84 and PC gaming was great in the past (I was a PC gamer then), but it has become a niche market producing endlessly the same games over and over (next year seems interesting nonetheless, we'll see if promises will be fullfilled).
Currently Western gamers are on the top of the charts, which has nothing to do with quality.

Western developed games are dominating their Japanese counterparts in all put a few genres.

Sports games, FPS and RTS, that is pretty much all I see. What did I forgot ??

 

[zurich]

The way I see it - people who wanted to play online games jumped on PC bandwagon long time ago, and have no reason to leave it.

Sure they do, limited genres (FPSs, RTS, MMORPG dominate the PC), steep hardware requirements for alot of games raise the cost of playing far and above any/all potential monthly fees on a console (Planetside likes a gig of ram ), much more polished network system (on Xbox anyways), and ofcourse, the big kahuna -----> NO CHEATERS.

All of the above, versus 'free (mostly) gaming, AND I GET TO USE TEH MOUSE/KEYBROAD' is more than enough for a lot of jaded/disgruntled PC gamers.

Its really unreasonable to do a direct comparative essay between PC/Console online gaming right now, since it's been around for roughly (if not less than) ONE YEAR on these gen of consoles (DC omitted), while the PC has had it for eons. Really, come back in 3 years and we'll see how it stacks up.

But back to your original point.. I have a feeling you'r e not much of an online gamer (PC or console). That said, I think you're ill-equiped to debate the merits of the console/PC strengths/weaknesses in regards to online gaming

I so DO NOT want every console title to be a queer cookie-cutter FPS/RTS/MMORPG, cause thats why I left the PC scene. However, after the story is done, alot of games are dying to be taken online (ie: GTA).

 

[marconelly!]

They wouldn't have tried to sell the PS2 on the basis of 56k support in the UK like they did.

Have they really ever advertised 56K in Europe? I too remember they announced BB only support at lest six months ago...

Sony is only going broadband to compete with Xbox Live.

And I honestly don't see how is it going to be of any benefit to them to reduce the possible userbase. It's not like they are supporting ONLY 56K elsewhere, so that it's kicking them in the butt and it's not like they are any less competitive with Xbox Live in the US, where they are supporting both. 56K is a completely separate set of users after all, it's a bonus on top of the BB support, and a welcome bonus at that.

Marconelly, the reason why the hard drive is so critical is that downloadable content is more important to casual gamers than actual online play. The other reason is that updates to the Xbox dashboard are made to the hard drive.

Downloadable content more important? I very much doubt it. Noone is buying into the whole online thing because they can download a new character once in six months or so. They are doing it because they can play against other people. You are right that it is important against cheating, but that is really the only reason why HDD is actually useful for online gaming. Somehow I don't think that reason alone would stop Sony to implement exactly the same centralized infrastructure as Microsoft did, if they actually wanted.

The reason why they didn't do it is because they probably realized it's not worth it. I can tell you, MS people are probably scratching their heads a little right now, seeing how all the insane hype and money spent on their online service resulted in quite abysimal number of online users, bettered even by Sony's online userbase where the whole thing felt more like a regular, simple addition to their offering and not some kind of prophetic social revolution as Microsoft seemed to talk about XBL.

But back to your original point.. I have a feeling you'r e not much of an online gamer (PC or console). That said, I think you're ill-equiped to debate the merits of the console/PC strengths/weaknesses in regards to online gaming

Hey, numbers are speaking better than I can. Great majority of people don't care about console online gaming, even if it's as accessible as it is nowadays. Yeah, I'm not much of an online gamer, but in that regard, I'm in absolute majority.

I so DO NOT want every console title to be a queer cookie-cutter FPS/RTS/MMORPG, cause thats why I left the PC scene. However, after the story is done, alot of games are dying to be taken online (ie: GTA).

GTA? It's been done. On a PC. Go download that Multi Theft GTA mod and enjoy.

 

[zurich]

I can tell you, MS people are probably scratching their hheir heads a little right now, seeing how all the insane hype and money spent on their online service resulted in quite abysimal number of online users, bettered even by Sony's online userbase where the whole thing felt more like a regular, simple addition to their offering and not some kind of prophetic social revolution as Microsoft seemed to talk about XBL.

I'm guessing the numbers would be abysmal if they were below MS's projections. Instead, they were above. Woops

Hey, numbers are speaking better than I can. Great majority of people don't care about console online gaming, even if it's as accessible as it is nowadays. Yeah, I'm not much of an online gamer, but in that regard, I'm in absolute majority.

But again you forget that you don't need the majority of gamers to make big money with online gaming. So in that regard, the 400k+ XBL users are already a sucess.

GTA? It's been done. On a PC. Go download that Multi Theft GTA mod and enjoy.

I guess you haven't played it then (shudders)

<- will wait for Rockstar

 

[Fafalada]

Wazoo, most gaming genres originated on the PC or on the Atari 2600.

Well if with PC you refer to x86 compatibles, then I have to ask what genre originated there outside FPS (even that is arguable, but at least it wasn't popular before Doom).
Although, Atari 2600 was just one of many home computers in the past, and they all fit definition of Personal Computer - so using the "PC" in that sense, I agree that you have a point

Western developed games are dominating their Japanese counterparts in all put a few genres.

Seconding Wazoo here, what else besides Sport Games and FPS?
I wouldn't include RTS since I don't remember last time I saw Japanese developed RTS on x86 PC, and the Western developed RTS on consoles are also virtually non-existant (clearly not dominating anything outside x86 market).
Also do Korean,Chinese,Russian etc. devs fall under Japan or West?

 

[archie4oz]

I wouldn't include RTS since I don't remember last time I saw Japanese developed RTS on x86 PC, and the Western developed RTS on consoles are also virtually non-existant (clearly not dominating anything outside x86 market).

The RTS may even be questionable... Korea is a massive RTS market (native as well as imported titles), and their domestically developed MMPORGS dominate pretty much anything else in terms of subscriber base. Who knows how well their RTS's do in terms of sales?

Also do Korean,Chinese,Russian etc. devs fall under Japan or W

Then there's always the games that are mutts (i.e. using say Japanese or US property, but dev'ing in another country). Then there's titles which are co-developed as well...

 

[nondescript]

Korea is a massive RTS market (native as well as imported titles), and their domestically developed MMPORGS dominate pretty much anything else in terms of subscriber base. Who knows how well their RTS's do in terms of sales?

Korean native RTS's aren't too great ... they're big RTS players, because they're big PC players - a habit developed because of their natural disinclination to buy Japanese wares. However, in the recent years, this has become less and less true, and the import market for Japanese consoles is very large and mature. Anyways, the big RTS games are still Western.

When in comes to MMPORGS, Koreans dominate, no one else comes even close ... in Taiwan, my country, there are ONE MILLION Lineage accounts - in a country of 23 million. A little under 5% of the country plays Lineage. Korean online RPGs are the de facto standard in East Asia.

 

[archie4oz]

a habit developed because of their natural disinclination to buy Japanese wares.

I wouldn't quite call it "natural disinclination" so much as forced, since until a few years ago it was illegal to purchase "Japanese wares." It did lead to quite sizeable grey-market that has grown into quite a sizeable import market which is one of the reasons why for example SCEK isn't doing all that hot (the import market probably is much larger than the proper localization market).

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Western dominated genres:

Sports (25% of the gaming market)
RTS (mainly on PCs)
FPS (very important genre now, even on consoles)
Squad-based games - Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six, etc...
Third-Person adventure - Prince of Persia, Eternal Darkness for starters
Platformer - Rayman 3, Ratchet & Clank, J&D > Mario
Free-roaming action - GTA3 (huge as we all know), Midnight Club II
MMORPG - Everquest, other PC games, Star Wars Galaxies

Parity genres:

Racing - GT3 vs. PGR, Midnight Club II, Burnout 2, etc... close call IMO.
Shooters - Rogue Squadron vs. Panzer Dragoon, depends how much freedom you want.
Stealth/Action - Splinter Cell vs. MGS .. very close
Real time RPG - Morrowind (not my thing but very popular), Everwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate vs. Zelda.

Japanese dominated genres:

Fighting - VF, DoA, Tekken (not an important genre anymore though)
Turn-based RPG - Square, Enix etc...
Music games
Survival Horror

The important thing for a publisher to note is that in the cases of genre parity, usually the western developed game has a higher attach rate to whatever console it hits than a similar Japanese offering.

The market is moving more and more towards western developed games.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Marconelly, in the end I think that downloadable content will be the key to attracting casual games as subscribers to an online service. Not everyone wants to play online with strangers, but everyone wants to get more out of their games. The MS Xbox Live surveys bare this theory out with hard data.

Rest assured that if the PS2 had a hard drive and network card out of the box, then Sony would be charging subscriptions already. It's going to be funny in here when Sony does subscriptions with PS3. Too bad I won't be able to see all the shocked PS2 fan faces for myself.

On the other hand, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong if it turns out that Sony sticks to the open model. I don't think they will though.

Btw, MS sitting at 400k on a 10 million userbase vs. Sony sitting on 600k with a 50 million userbase is doing pretty good IMO. Especially when MS collected revenue from all of those people while providing very few dedicated servers. MS certainly has already made money on Xbox Live.

 

[Vince]

If "Downloadable Content" such a draw - then why aren't sales of OPM and Official XBox Magazine literally enourmous? They offer downloadable content, added cheats, level saves, even entire levels in addition to the demos.

Yet, there is no draw... this argument is so fallicious in light of this.

People play games online because it's fun, it's part of the human experience and is social, and it's dynamic (as opposed to playing bots or the AI).


As for the rest - The East vs West argument is old and tired. I refuse to get involved in what's basically a proxie argument that reduces to a Microsoft vs. Sony/Nintendo argument that's often used by 'supporters' to show that Microsoft can survive without the massive worldwide industry support that a company like Sony currently possesses.

What they refuse to acknowledge is the abnormally high relience of Microsoft on PC developers and that MS's support isn't that of a Sony, but rather rises from their [MS] cannibalization of the PC format. What are the biggest games on XBox from E3?

- Halo2 (Bungie, former PC dev), Doom3 (id software, PC dev), Half-Life2 (VALVe, PC dev), Project Ego (Big Blue Box/Peter Molyneux, PC dev), Counter-Strike (VALVe, PC dev)

Oh yes... I wonder why some people push this Western dominence argument.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Vince,

I disagree about downloadable content obviously, considering that whole extra levels have only been possible with a hard drive and the concept is just starting to get a foothold. Many people weren't willing to pay $7 for an OXM they wouldn't have otherwise purchased, just to get Kola Cell for Splinter Cell, but it was downloaded like crazy off Xbox Live for free.

The social experience of playing online is another big draw, as you say, but it's that much better when voice is supported in every game.

Western dev revival is obvious. Interesting that you're trying to turn it into a conspiracy theory Vince, since you can't actually argue the point. You can state whatever you want about it, but the fact remains that the best selling games last holiday were mainly from US/EU devs. GTA3, Splinter Cell, Metroid Prime to give a few examples.

Why do you think that Ubi Soft is swimming in profits while Konami, Sega, Capcom, and Namco are barely putting food on the table even though they're mainly developing for the most popular platform - PS2?

If Namco and Capcom can't make money with 50 million PS2s out there, they may as well run home with their tails between their legs.

Look at the rise of EA. Seriously Vince, I like Japanese games too, but when something's staring you in the face you have to accept it.

This argument runs across all three platforms, as I've already demonstrated.

 

[Paul]

Why do you think that Ubi Soft is swimming in profits while Konami, Sega, Capcom, and Namco are barely putting food on the table even though they're mainly developing for the most popular platform - PS2?

Maybe they are putting out shit games that noone wants to play? Ever think about that? Or not even shit games, let's say games that don't have MASS market appeal, such as PDO. Many AWESOME games don't sell huge because they have no mass market appeal like Halo or Splinter Cell.

Plus, after a drought of good games, any good game that comes out for the system most of the system owners will pick it up. Boom, excellent sales. Meanwhile if a system is getting 2-3 great games a month, you will see that there won't be one HUGE seller, but good sales between the games. Just thought I'd bring that point up.

And how do you know Konami Sega Capcom and Namco are barely putting food on the table? Or is this something you made up, I'm curious as to this point you bring up.