ShadowRunner
Veteran
Itll certainly be harder for them than if they were called nintendo :smile:
Its not a huge problem though with the rite content and marketing.
Project Natal: MS Full Body 3D Motion Detection
- Thread starter Arwin
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Itll certainly be harder for them than if they were called nintendo :smile:
Its not a huge problem though with the rite content and marketing.
Maybe not but at least wouldn't we all like to see someone try and play for ourselves.
I wouldn't have any problem with it as long as it works. Why not as long as it is better than traditional controllers.
I hope someone is at least quietly experimenting right now.
Some games just won't work with motion control, nor do all gamers want to be waving their arms about actively. How do you propose FIFA is played with Natal? If I'm supposed to be active playing a football game, I'll just out and play football! Games offer a laid-back, casual, intellect/sensory stimulating pastime, for sharing, winding down with, or filling a moment. There's plenty of scope for motion-games, but it's not a replacement control any more than movies are a replacement for a good book.
And you believe this based on...what? Just a personal desire to not see it happen or the actual belief that no developer out there has the talent to make it happen?
Putting aside your personal feelings for a second, what makes you believe an FPS for example couldn't be done with motion/speech recognition?
The fact I don't want to play games waving my arms around and/or shouting at the TV.
Can any game be mapped onto motion control? Sure. Does it make the game inherently better? Maybe you should ask that of the devs using sixaxis...Like I asked though, explain to me how FIFA can be turned into a satisfying Natal game. Come up with a good idea and I may rethink things. However having buzzed my brain for ideas, I come up with nothing that'll work as the current FIFA experience.
ShadowRunner
Veteran
Would you wan to play a Le Mans 24 game with natal or a proper steering wheel? Not every game is suited to every type of of control. I want to play Street Fighter IV on an arcade stick not with motion controls, if it was to use natal effectively it would have to become a different game/experience, something i wouldnt welcome if i felt tike playing SFIV in its current state. I really cant believe how you can disagree with this.
Part of the fun of some games stems entirely from how you interact with it. If you change the way you interact with it then you have a different game.
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The right of doing this is to have 3 diff scopes in which games are produced.
Traditional: like current. Using a handheld controller.
Hybrid: controller + motion sensing such as turning your head to peak in FPS games and such.
Full motion: Something like a boxing game, Wii Fit clone, ricochet, family friendly kart game and so on.
I seriously doubt MS is going for a Natal OR DEATH! approach. Having multiple scopes approach allows you to keep the hardcore that got you there, happy. With well done hybrid games, you gain a good chance of selling them on Natal also. The other scope of going full motion gives you a crack at an audience who has generally been shy of your console due to it's complexity in controls. A 10button controller with 2 analog sticks and a d pad, with games often using all of the buttons, isn't the easiest control scheme to try and put into people's hands.
Traditional: like current. Using a handheld controller.
Hybrid: controller + motion sensing such as turning your head to peak in FPS games and such.
Full motion: Something like a boxing game, Wii Fit clone, ricochet, family friendly kart game and so on.
I seriously doubt MS is going for a Natal OR DEATH! approach. Having multiple scopes approach allows you to keep the hardcore that got you there, happy. With well done hybrid games, you gain a good chance of selling them on Natal also. The other scope of going full motion gives you a crack at an audience who has generally been shy of your console due to it's complexity in controls. A 10button controller with 2 analog sticks and a d pad, with games often using all of the buttons, isn't the easiest control scheme to try and put into people's hands.
IMO full body motion control (FBMC) is much more appealing than traditional controller.
I'm quite puzzled why people care about current games that don't seem to be working with a new control scheme. FBMC gives you more freedom with seeming simplicity (control wise). In the long run, controller we love will simply die, along with genres that cannot adapt. Whether Natal tech will provide means for that transition is of course to be seen.
The more interesting question no one seems to care is when we will see a practical electroencephalography based controller. There was already one "thought reading" pointer device released for gaming a couple of years back. And two simple toys that read "brain waves" are either already released or about to be released soon, if I'm not mistaken. Both are limited to binary "thoughts" but the technology may very well lead to the ultimate human machine interaction interface.
I'm quite puzzled why people care about current games that don't seem to be working with a new control scheme. FBMC gives you more freedom with seeming simplicity (control wise). In the long run, controller we love will simply die, along with genres that cannot adapt. Whether Natal tech will provide means for that transition is of course to be seen.
The more interesting question no one seems to care is when we will see a practical electroencephalography based controller.
There was already one "thought reading" pointer device released for gaming a couple of years back. And two simple toys that read "brain waves" are either already released or about to be released soon, if I'm not mistaken. Both are limited to binary "thoughts" but the technology may very well lead to the ultimate human machine interaction interface.think about that for a second
.......
ok do u understand (thats even if the thing could register if u turned your head!, think about why that would be hard for the motion detector to pick up)
say natal panned out 100% (*)
it will benifit only certain games
.. party
.. fitness
.. ummm help me out
genres it wont help
-FPS or other shooters
-driving
-platform
-fighting (perhaps a limited form of boxing though)
-etc
(*)thus ignoring the reality of all real demos so far shown having major failings
Could you control an internet browser/operating system with Natal? Im just wondering how the non gaming, utility angle could be explored with this interface as well. A finger could easily replace a mouse pointer and all you'd need would be a basic on screen keyboard for some basic typing operations? Im not suggesting that you would want to type an essay on the interface, but it would be enough to punch in a web address right?
Silent_Buddha
Legend
think about that for a second
.......
ok do u understand (thats even if the thing could register if u turned your head!, think about why that would be hard for the motion detector to pick up)
Simple webcams have already been demo'd with simple head tracking in driving games and flight sims.
I don't see why Natal wouldn't be able to do something so simple.
Heck, I see no reason why Eye Toy couldn't be used in the same capacity for something like GT5. Unless the processing requirements are too high. But I doubt that tracking simple head movements is nearly as taxing as tracking 48 points in 3 dimensional space.
Regards,
SB
Some games involve just left, right and action (hit/jump). How would Mario be better on motion control? Would it be better to wave your hand left or right to move him, and flick it up to jump? I don't understand the aversion to traditional controls! They're not for everyone, sure, but why turn everything motionified? It's like 3D. When 3D came in, every game had to be 3D, to their detriment a lot of the time. Now the industry has grown up a bit and appreciates the medium of 2D games, and they are making a reappearance. There's no point turning a 2D game 3D just for the sake of it. Aim to make the game better while keeping true to the game. Same can be said for motion controls versus good old fashioned button mashing.
Depends on how long you want to play the game, how fast and how accurate the tracking is. Plus how effective the control scheme is. Wiimote has already started down this path but even then it's taking developers some time to discover the right mechanics.
The more interesting question no one seems to care is when we will see a practical electroencephalography based controller.
Today: http://www.physorg.com/news150781868.html
SciFi: http://www.newscientist.com/article...takes-first-step-towards-reallife-matrix.html
Yes.
People forget microsoft have a *lot* of experience with voice control systems.
"Internet, open dub dub dub dot youtube dot com"
"search, 'hot hot action'"
"open link 'really hot action'"
"fullscreen"
"rewind"
"slowmo"
"enhance"
"contrast"
"sleep mode"
"vertical hold"
"ah-ha!!"
"everybody get in here!"
- multiplayer hand gestures, head tracking, video chat + voice chat, and my god boxing is *perfect* for natal. Really.
My main concern has been the lag shown in the system videos. Especially odd considering all the 3DV systems videos were mostly lag free. I know it's not the same tech base, but one would hope it's something they can improve in the 6-12 months (or however long it is until release).
That's not the point though is it? I think the point is more that of course a lot of games have been made to make the best of what we have in terms of controls. But they have also been done pretty much to death. Of course for some games the old style of controlling games is also likely to be the best! And therefore we can typically also still play those games that way (see plenty of Wii examples).
The question for me is: haven't we played those games enough? Can't we make much more interesting, new and better games and control methods using the new controllers? I think the answer is very simply yes, but since we've worked with old-style controls for such a long time, it's going to take a while. But the potential is definitely there - I see it almost every week when I get visitors who otherwise never play games. Motion controls just work - Flower for instance is a tremendous hit in a way that it would never have been if you controlled it with the analog sticks.
There's no aversion necessarily. There's just interest in moving things forward, in finding the new limits. They will be and are being found for sure, meaning that no you can't control all games better with motion controls. Ultimately, something like the regular controller is going to be more efficient for a lot of things, simply because it requires very little movement, it's all done by your fingers, and is going to be very efficient because of it. But something like the PSMC for instance (and WiiMotionPlus to some extent) could definitely end up giving you the best of both worlds as well as some completely new stuff (I loved the paintbrushing example in the Sony demo! How cool that would have been in GTA San Andreas. in Little Big Planet, or something like Forza's car painting feature. etc.), and Natal can potentially bring us to some new worlds altogether.
The hybrid part with the combination of a traditional controler with body&head tracking and Voice recognition is by far the most interesting implementation of natal from the perspective of casuals and hardcore gamers.
With reference to the aiming-shooting mechanics of modern V.Games:
Weither i play GeOW2 now or Modern Warfare2 and Alan wake in the future, the procedure i follow to take aim and kill an enemy npc is more or less the same.
After i track/align the npc in the center of my screen (moving the camera in free-look mode), I press the Left Triger in order to zoom-in on my target.
In 99% of the cases, this will result to my aimpoint sitting a couple cm away of my target or so.
Now, if someone is using a mouse , he can cover the remaining distance very fast and accuratelly as we all know.
This is not exactly the case when he tries to do the same using the right stick of his controler...
So, what if you could cover instantly and accuratelly this remaining small distance by moving your head like a 3d mouse?
I think that it would result to alot more satisfactory results.
With reference to the aiming-shooting mechanics of modern V.Games:
Weither i play GeOW2 now or Modern Warfare2 and Alan wake in the future, the procedure i follow to take aim and kill an enemy npc is more or less the same.
After i track/align the npc in the center of my screen (moving the camera in free-look mode), I press the Left Triger in order to zoom-in on my target.
In 99% of the cases, this will result to my aimpoint sitting a couple cm away of my target or so.
Now, if someone is using a mouse , he can cover the remaining distance very fast and accuratelly as we all know.
This is not exactly the case when he tries to do the same using the right stick of his controler
... So, what if you could cover instantly and accuratelly this remaining small distance by moving your head like a 3d mouse?
I think that it would result to alot more satisfactory results.
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Sure. New games I like. Ninzel was saying could all games be motion controlled though, and yes, if you elliminate a lot of good games and only do games with motion control, then every game would be motion controlled. Heck, we could do that now with Wii and sixaxis. Developers don't have to use all those buttons.
I'm not against new games and experiences. I just don't want to see the baby chucked out with the bath water, as is so often the case whenthe next new, big exciting thing happens. Recognise how green the grass really is on this side of the fence at the same time as how nice it looks on the other side. Football with buttons and sticks is good. I'd like to see motion control added - in FIFA it'd be great to maneouvre the player dodges or such with sixaxis control. I don't want a football game that involves arm waving or shouting at the screen (shouting is reserved for mates!), or an RTS where I select and position players like the Wii game (was that FIFA or PES?). Of course developers could disregard the wishes of many gamers and go whole-hog motion control, so to play Halo you have to stand, duck, weave, point your hands at the screen, and say 'bang bang' to shoot. I doubt every Halo player will be enthused to play thei many-hour games like that though. Wouldn't it be better to have both options, two different games catering to different tastes?
That was PES, but if you haven't played it, the game is very good. You retain full on-ball control, but you can also pick your passes better and move other players if you want to. It's basically a standard football game with a layer of RTS on top. The only thing I didn't like was shooting, because you just shook the nunchuck. Your shot power tended to be too perfect, so almost all shots were on net and you scored far too often when in good positions. I haven't tried the latest version of the game.
And it uses buttons, right? Motion controls provide limited degrees of freedom if they are to remain intuitive. In FIFA, with individual player control, you need player selection, movement direction and speed, kick direction and power, and kick type. How do you manage that with two arms and keep it feeling intelligent and natural? The only thing I can think of would be using hands to point in directions and such, and I think that's less immersive. It would be more a matter of directing the players than controlling them directly. If that makes sense.
Motion controls provide limited degrees of freedom if they are to remain intuitive. In FIFA, with individual player control, you need player selection, movement direction and speed, kick direction and power, and kick type. How do you manage that with two arms and keep it feeling intelligent and natural? The only thing I can think of would be using hands to point in directions and such, and I think that's less immersive. It would be more a matter of directing the players than controlling them directly. If that makes sense.And it uses buttons, right?
Yeah, it uses buttons and the stick on the nunchuck. I'm just saying it was a good game
It doesn't really use much motion control from what I remember. Mostly it's just using the pointer functions. Shooting would have been better as a button, but I'm pretty sure they were out of buttons 
