Project Natal: MS Full Body 3D Motion Detection
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Could be a really bright infrared light source or it could just be his microphone since the microphone array may have had a hard time with all the background noise at the show.
EDIT: Checked the video on Live & Looks like it's part of his sleeve/cuff.
Tommy McClain
EDIT: Checked the video on Live & Looks like it's part of his sleeve/cuff.
Tommy McClain
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Thanks for the time-of-flight camera link. So, capacitors accumulating charge in analog is what measures the time-of-flight? Then I see how the 1ns shutter doesn't limit depth resolution.
That said, I think Natal is being greatly oversold. It looks able to resolve only major skeletal points, like shoulders, knees, hands, feet, etc. The depth information simply helps constrain its Inverse Kinematics solver. That twisted pretzel the guy's avatar did when trying to show the bottom of his shoes during the E3 demo looks like the IK solver snapping to a wonky solution.
It seems very likely to me that Natal cannot resolve fine finger-scale positional information. Not even the rotation of the hands.
That said, I think Natal is being greatly oversold. It looks able to resolve only major skeletal points, like shoulders, knees, hands, feet, etc. The depth information simply helps constrain its Inverse Kinematics solver. That twisted pretzel the guy's avatar did when trying to show the bottom of his shoes during the E3 demo looks like the IK solver snapping to a wonky solution.
It seems very likely to me that Natal cannot resolve fine finger-scale positional information. Not even the rotation of the hands.
Would this thing use inverse kinematics? If it's using the time of flight camera to identify the body, and then an algorithm assigns the skeleton to that body, wouldn't it track each point of the skeleton individually and then update the avatar appropriately? You've collected raw data for each point, you shouldn't have to calculate the movement of anything. My understanding of inverse kinematics is primitive.
I read something today where the developers said finger tracking could work, but with a fairly low res camera, which I'm guessing it is, proximity would be an issue. You'd have to hold your hand closer to have the camera distinguish each finger.
Edit: I guess your avatar won't have the same body proportions as yourself (ratio of arms to legs to back), so there has to be some kind of translation of the data to the avatar.
I read something today where the developers said finger tracking could work, but with a fairly low res camera, which I'm guessing it is, proximity would be an issue. You'd have to hold your hand closer to have the camera distinguish each finger.
Edit: I guess your avatar won't have the same body proportions as yourself (ratio of arms to legs to back), so there has to be some kind of translation of the data to the avatar.
good point.
Money can be dismissed as it's an indication about your product being successful thus it's a acknoledgement of your work. It must be more rewarding personnaly as a dev/artist than falling in oblivion. But it's not my only point the lack of enthusiasm (or percieved as such) from developpers may not be attribute to the lacking of the wiimote only. Lack of accruacy can be fight be aiming assistance for instance. I would not be surprised if the lack of enthusiasm comes from the wii hardware it self. The thing is obsolete, it didn't have "real gamers" attention in the first place, devs/artist may have been pushed on the gimmick approch for the product as it didn't stand that much chances to fight against the HD consoles renditions of traditional games. Even Nintendo states now that they need core gamers. May the wii have a half up to date hardware and devs/artists attitude may have have been different all together, less intensive to push the "gimmick" to far and they could have gone with more traditional games just adding extra uses of the nun chuck as time go.
My opinion is that Wiimote is not the most obvious culprit in this case, I know some people who own the Wii and don't complain that much about the control, they have issues but they work in most cases.
I see a lot of of concern about fingers tracking but I would want to know what it would be use for?
Personnaly I don't see much use for real finger tracking or I would say what it put on the table can be granted by mixing different technics, technology can't go that far anyway. Wiki hint at a 200x200 resolution for Zcam (X,Y) if true depending on your distance from the cam Z values accuracy may only be a part of the problem. I've a question does that kind od camera allow some sort of focus?
Anyway I realize that MS would hill adviced to came with a subpart RGB camera, they will need to be able to recover proper 2d images/information.
Personnaly I don't see much use for real finger tracking or I would say what it put on the table can be granted by mixing different technics, technology can't go that far anyway. Wiki hint at a 200x200 resolution for Zcam (X,Y) if true depending on your distance from the cam Z values accuracy may only be a part of the problem. I've a question does that kind od camera allow some sort of focus?
Anyway I realize that MS would hill adviced to came with a subpart RGB camera, they will need to be able to recover proper 2d images/information.
Hadn't seen this posted yet...
Official videos from Microsoft. First one is Sugar Ray Leonard, Eric Dickerson, and Willie Gault playing Burnout Paradise & Ricochet. Second one is Paul Rodriguez playing Richochet. Both show a few glimpses of gameplay, not just the player. But the videos are mostly there to show glowing praise from the celebreties. Who can blame them wanting to show that?
Tommy McClain
Official videos from Microsoft. First one is Sugar Ray Leonard, Eric Dickerson, and Willie Gault playing Burnout Paradise & Ricochet. Second one is Paul Rodriguez playing Richochet. Both show a few glimpses of gameplay, not just the player. But the videos are mostly there to show glowing praise from the celebreties. Who can blame them wanting to show that?
Tommy McClain
I just had an interesting idea for how to use this,
And it's perfect for 'hardcore' games that use the gamepad.
Say, you are in a coop game of CoD. Natal sees your hands are on the gamepad, and it doesn't do anything.
But then you wave you your teammate... In game your character takes their hand off the gun and also waves.
Not to mention the other thing I wondered about, merging the video stream with head tracking to put your head, live, into the game. And TrackIR style motion.
I swear the uses for this thing are potentially amazing.
And it's perfect for 'hardcore' games that use the gamepad.
Say, you are in a coop game of CoD. Natal sees your hands are on the gamepad, and it doesn't do anything.
But then you wave you your teammate... In game your character takes their hand off the gun and also waves.
Not to mention the other thing I wondered about, merging the video stream with head tracking to put your head, live, into the game. And TrackIR style motion.
I swear the uses for this thing are potentially amazing.
I want to be an NHL goalie.
If they come out with a reasonable boxing game, I will buy this thing just for that one game. And hopefully it would have online so I could get my virtual ass kicked by Robert.
But secondly, I want to play as an NHL goalie. Soccer might be hard because the net is so big.
If they come out with a reasonable boxing game, I will buy this thing just for that one game. And hopefully it would have online so I could get my virtual ass kicked by Robert.
But secondly, I want to play as an NHL goalie. Soccer might be hard because the net is so big.
The waving is actually one of the things I've seen mentioned where people were talking about finger tracking. I can't remember if that was here, or if that was the question where they asked the Natal guys if finger tracking was possible. Basically they wanted to be able to do swat hand signals.
In-game character puppeteering is perhaps one fo the best uses. LBP works very well with its simple controls to communicate naturally with body language. Home is a land of robots without motion control. If you could map character motion, it'd really help interface people online when you could wave, smile, high-five etc. Even better when you can give true military combat gestures for silent team instructions!
I'm starting to warm up to it. You could even use true hand signals to team members. That would be rad.
I've tried a couple of times to write my feelings on the Natal, but I've been kinda conflicted about it. On one hand it seems like cool tech which leapfrogs Wii, but on the other hand I really wanted a Wiimote device last year or this year. But I can understand why they didn't. They wanted to break the stigma of just copying Wii. Unfortunately going with Natal pushes them out late next year.
I had hoped something like the Motus' controller or the Gametrak Freedom would have been used. I don't like the idea of a device that requires a camera in addition to the waggle. One would think it would be possible to get all the excellent precision of the PSMC without a camera or the colored light bulb. Maybe I'm just dreaming & it's not possible. Will Microsoft bring out some kind of motion controller to go with this? I'm really starting to doubt it. I hope I'm wrong since I really want one. Maybe they will make a break apart Sixaxis controller & make that standard? Maybe they'll make a motion controlled Big Button controller? Who knows, but one would think they would have announced it along side Natal if they were.
One question I have is the bundling. I think it will be determined on how much the camera costs. Total fail if it's not included with a system. If it's real expensive I could see them making a specific bundle including it, maybe a new Arcade without a wireless controller. The announcement just leaves me with so many questions. I get more conflicted the more I think about it. LOL
Tommy McClain
Exactly. Imagine playing 1 vs 100 with your Avatar & controlling all your body movements. LOL
Tommy McClain
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Thanks for that Kotaku link, hadn't been there yet. Nice to see an article from the POV of a skeptic.
Hmm, I wonder if a future version of Natal will include the ability to detect primitive finger movements. IE - a stick for an entire finger so you could do primitive finger signs?
Either way that definitely confirms that it currently isn't in there even if Tsunoda claims it's possible.
Which makes me extremely curious just what 48 joints they are tracking for the skeleton.
Regards,
SB
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Hmmm, I can't remember where (or even for sure IF) I saw this, but wasn't there mention of Live NXE models with whatever that social networking site is? It gave the impression that the NXE interface for it would also allow multiple avatars and presumably voice communication. I assume this would be tied to your friends list or something.
That would be an interesting use of Natal in a casual non gaming arena.
Not quite PS3 Home level as there's no customized rooms, etc...
Regards,
SB
If you see the concern how did you miss how this relates to guitar strumming or really anything with small manual dexterity?
You want other examples?
pulling a gun trigger
lock picking
typing
pointing
fingers used as counters
directing troops in a combat game
any fine movement
etc, etc
Inquisitive_Idiot
Regular
3DV had a flying game demo where you would raise one of your fingers to trigger the machine gun and another to trigger bombs. I am sure it would be fine for pointing like a mouse (not super high quality, but similar to navigating the Wii dash board), but I have no clue if it could be used accurately enough for an FPS game, not that it really matters. This device is going to focused around games that use your full body, or otherwise require you to be active while playing.
There will be an unbelievable amount of wanking on xbox live.
