Project Natal: MS Full Body 3D Motion Detection

[Silent_Buddha]

Again, I urge everyone not to trust the 'press' on evaluating new tech. Just look back to how critical they were of OnLive!

Mind you, I'm not denying that the system could easily work like we saw at the E3 presentation, I have no information (Milo, though, yeah, I'm doubting that).

And yes, obonicus, there's all the possibility that this call fall through if MS isn't dedicated enough, if MS can't get devs to properly support it, if a killer application can't be made for it, if the lag proves to be too much for anything but really casual games, or it's priced too high to be attractive.

But what I and others that are excited about is just the possibility of what this could bring.

Just like there's people excited about the possibility of what Nintendo's Motion Plus or PS3's wands could bring to the respective systems.

Perhaps someone like me is just willing to suspend disbelief a little more than others. But I'd (personally) rather read (from people that haven't used either system) about people speculating on what's possible from their controller of choice, rather than the constant negativity and nit picking.

Unfortunately, it appears I've been drawn into it also despite trying to avoid posting anything negative about other systems. Meh, sometimes a person just can't keep shut I guess.

Anyways, as always time will tell what happens. And hopefully each person remains excited about the possibilities their specific system is implementing without having to constantly be negative about other systems.

Regards,
SB

 

[obonicus]

And yes, obonicus, there's all the possibility that this call fall through if MS isn't dedicated enough, if MS can't get devs to properly support it, if a killer application can't be made for it, if the lag proves to be too much for anything but really casual games, or it's priced too high to be attractive.

Where did I say that? What I'm saying is that journalists are yes-men who are almost entirely unwilling to ask difficult questions or respond negatively to a preview lest they not be invited to private showings again. What does that mean? I'll spell it out for you: don't take journalists' impressions as gospel. Yes, you'd think that'd be obvious by now, but yet here we are. We're looking at press going 'hey, it works' and going 'it works! they all say it works! where can I get one?!'

I suggest you read what I said before you go off on a long tirade. Did you read the part where I specifically say that I'm in no position to say that Natal can't accomplish what they claim?

And before you accuse me of cheerleading a system, show me being excited for any motion detection system. The only thing I've shown any interest in is a pointer system, which PSWand and the Wiimote have demonstrated.

 

[zed]

Where did I say that? What I'm saying is that journalists are yes-men who are almost entirely unwilling to ask difficult questions or respond negatively to a preview lest they not be invited to private showings again. What does that mean? I'll spell it out for you: don't take journalists' impressions as gospel. Yes, you'd think that'd be obvious by now, but yet here we are. We're looking at press going 'hey, it works' and going 'it works! they all say it works! where can I get one?!'

Ive spoken about this a few times on these forums,
the lack of decent gaming journalism

yes part of the reason no doubt what u say obonicus
also Ive been listening on the radio recently to ppl debating the standards of investigating journalism in the print meadia + hows is slipping badly, research has been done (whilst I forget the exactly figure, it was >75%) of articles in major newspapers are basically regurgitated press releases from government departments,industry etc.
the main reason given, is lack of staff due to costcutting from the increased competition from online media.
this is just for general news, for gaming the competition from online media is far worse

personally I believe this is a sad state of affairs

I was listening to the PM of nz getting grilled last night (4minutes)

http://www.radionz.co.nz/__data/ass...handling_of_the_Richard_Worth_affair-m048.asx

this happens every day here, I know in the US etc the president doesnt have to withstand such questioning so this method might be shocking but personally I believe its great as it leads to a more transparent + honest system

 

[Brad Grenz]

The problem with the press reports is they use each thing for like 5 minutes. OK, it was fine for that period of time, but they don't think critically about whether they'd want to do that for a longer play session. They also mostly don't have the technical accumen to ask pertinent questions about fine grain accuracy, pointing solutions, how much is running on the camera processor versus the 360 processor, etc, etc, etc. No one even asks something obvious like, "what about the button problem? Sony showed a ton of great examples of why a button is good for games? You've just claimed buttons are bad as a premise without adequate justification." I have no doubt that when they go in to that room it works almost like magic for them. But a 5 minute controlled demo is not enough evidence of a game play revolution. Reporters at e3 are prone to breathless enthusiasm anyway, but it's pretty troubling how eager everyone has been to be snowed under by MS marketing in the case of Natal.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Where did I say that? What I'm saying is that journalists are yes-men who are almost entirely unwilling to ask difficult questions or respond negatively to a preview lest they not be invited to private showings again. What does that mean? I'll spell it out for you: don't take journalists' impressions as gospel. Yes, you'd think that'd be obvious by now, but yet here we are. We're looking at press going 'hey, it works' and going 'it works! they all say it works! where can I get one?!'

I suggest you read what I said before you go off on a long tirade. Did you read the part where I specifically say that I'm in no position to say that Natal can't accomplish what they claim?

And before you accuse me of cheerleading a system, show me being excited for any motion detection system. The only thing I've shown any interest in is a pointer system, which PSWand and the Wiimote have demonstrated.

Bah, this is what happens when I start off with a reply to someone and the go off on a general tangent, none of that was targetted AT you. Although you do tend to be overly nitpicky. As do quite a few others.

Regards,
SB

 

[zRifle1z]

I'm surprised by some of the comments trying to convince others that 1)what they are seeing in Project Natal 2) what they've seen done by 3DV's Z Cam and 3)the possiblities that this new mode of interaction has, simply can't and won't be done. Not to mention the hands on articles written about the system.

IMHO MS has taken a step in the right direction. I can't wait for them to nail down the bugs and realese this unit next year. Don't know if this has been posted. If so i apologize in advance.

http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/02/m...ribes-origins-of-project-natal-game-controls/

 

[Boxercide]

Bah, this is what happens when I start off with a reply to someone and the go off on a general tangent, none of that was targetted AT you. Although you do tend to be overly nitpicky. As do quite a few others.

Regards,
SB

No. We just are realists.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

No. We just are realists.

In which case, the MS system has already shown more real world usage cases than the PS3 Wand + Eye combo.

In that it's actually useable in an actual game that has been released. And from all accounts accurate enough to sub for standard controller in most cases.

Regards,
SB

 

[MfA]

For all extents and purposes the waggle is just a slightly more accurate wiimote IMO.

 

[betan]

For all extents and purposes the waggle is just a slightly more accurate wiimote IMO.

waggle is though I wouldn't call it slightly, but there is also PS Eye.

 

[Crossbar]

In which case, the MS system has already shown more real world usage cases than the PS3 Wand + Eye combo.

In that it's actually useable in an actual game that has been released. And from all accounts accurate enough to sub for standard controller in most cases.

Seriously the Playstation wand can do everything the wii-controllers can do and more, so lack of real world usage will not be a problem.

Driving without wheel may be fun for a while or may apply to kid games, the mario kart wheel has sold pretty well, but sixaxis stearing has never become really popular in the mature market. It´s fun to control the MCs in Motorstorm, but you get tired of it after a while. I also thought that waving hands overbuttons in the eye-toy games was tiring after a while when playing with the kids.

You may say sour grapes, but I think Yoshida has a point in this interview.

However, we know from working with camera technology for a long time that just using the camera without precisely detecting what the consumer wants to do, with buttons and triggers, is quite difficult, especially when bringing it into the game context

 

[Tap In]

The problem with the press reports is they use each thing for like 5 minutes. OK, it was fine for that period of time, but they don't think critically about whether they'd want to do that for a longer play session. They also mostly don't have the technical accumen to ask pertinent questions about fine grain accuracy, pointing solutions, how much is running on the camera processor versus the 360 processor, etc, etc, etc. No one even asks something obvious like, "what about the button problem? Sony showed a ton of great examples of why a button is good for games? You've just claimed buttons are bad as a premise without adequate justification." I have no doubt that when they go in to that room it works almost like magic for them. But a 5 minute controlled demo is not enough evidence of a game play revolution. Reporters at e3 are prone to breathless enthusiasm anyway, but it's pretty troubling how eager everyone has been to be snowed under by MS marketing in the case of Natal.

MS is expressing a concept which works and which, obviously, engineers have spent considerable time contemplating the questions you put forth here and coming up with solutions.

they will not put it on the market until it is usable for game modes that will SELL to the public. that is their goal after all. Not to outdo the Sony/nintendo announcements.

Also in the hands of many more game designers (they obviously have enough confidence to release the first SDKs), I'm sure in time all of your questions will be answered as real world solutions are released expressed as games that people will want to play.

 

[thatdude90210]

Seriously the Playstation wand can do everything the wii-controllers can do and more, so lack of real world usage will not be a problem.

Maybe it can do everything the Wii M+ does, or maybe it can't. Without being subjected to independent report, we don't know that. Could be that it only works well within a 3 feet invisible cube where the demo wand was, and anything outside won't track correctly. Too bad Sony didn't allow journalists to mess with it.

 

[patsu]

I think so far we only get leaks from beta testers months ago.

Since they use the same SDK partner as Wii, I wonder if developers can start to make prototype now using Wiimote + PS Eye. I believe we can already write apps to talk to the Wiimote on PC today, so getting it to talk to PS3 should not be a problem. The PS Eye SDK should also be available long ago.

EDIT: Why are we talking about Sony controller here ?

 

[grandmaster]

The problem with the press reports is they use each thing for like 5 minutes. OK, it was fine for that period of time, but they don't think critically about whether they'd want to do that for a longer play session. They also mostly don't have the technical accumen to ask pertinent questions about fine grain accuracy, pointing solutions, how much is running on the camera processor versus the 360 processor, etc, etc, etc. No one even asks something obvious like, "what about the button problem? Sony showed a ton of great examples of why a button is good for games? You've just claimed buttons are bad as a premise without adequate justification." I have no doubt that when they go in to that room it works almost like magic for them. But a 5 minute controlled demo is not enough evidence of a game play revolution. Reporters at e3 are prone to breathless enthusiasm anyway, but it's pretty troubling how eager everyone has been to be snowed under by MS marketing in the case of Natal.

Worth pointing out that I've spoken to non-MS affiliated developers who've been able to test Natal at length in their own offices and they're as breathlessly enthusiastic about it as the E3 reporters.

Now to get one of them on the record...

 

[Brad Grenz]

Worth pointing out that I've spoken to non-MS affiliated developers who've been able to test Natal at length in their own offices and they're as breathlessly enthusiastic about it as the E3 reporters.

Now to get one of them on the record...

I'll not deny that the technology is impressive and fascinating. I am, however, skeptical about its gaming applications. MS tells us this constitutes a revolution in gaming without really showing any reason for us to believe that's true.

 

[patsu]

While you're at it, I'm interested to know:
* Multi-player tracking
* Resolution and response time
* State of the 3D mesh + skeleton generation (How accurate and fast, boundary conditions/fail cases)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Eurogamer interview with project director:

Alex Kipman: I've been working at Microsoft for about eight years, so I've been there for some time. I took on the job of creating an incubation team to think about what's next for Xbox. Don [Mattrick] challenged us to think ahead - to think beyond, to be innovative.
We thought about a wide range of things and made a team effort within Xbox to figure out where we want interactive entertainment to go. After quite a collaborative effort we landed on this, and a lot of research and a lot of sweat blended into something I think we're all very proud of.

Alex Kipman: The sensor itself has a lot of magic built in. It wouldn't be interesting for us to go to our developers and say, 'Hey, you can create all these brand new, awesome experiences but you need to do a lot of processing outside of the game.'
So we have a custom chip that we put in the sensor itself. The chip we designed with Microsoft will be doing the majority of the processing for you, so as a game designer you can think about the sensor as a normal input device - something that's relatively free for you as a game designer.
Designers have 100 per cent of the resources of the console and this device is just another input device they can use. It's a fancy, cool, awesome device, but essentially you can just treat it from a free-to-platform perspective, because all of the magic - all of the processing - happens sensor-side.

 

[Arwin]

So, another piece of the puzzle covered. I figured as much, I was thinking that it probably among others can just output a skeleton.

 

[rabidrabbit]

What impact does it have in the input lag, that the camera device is doing some apparently pretty heavy calculations?