Professionalism in public statements & spinning in a spin-off thread

[iroboto]

It's all well and good being upset when someone says something bad about something you love, but it's also completely within the law. If an employer fires you for voicing your opinions, you're actually in a better position in a court than your employer. That's fact.

People here might not like it, but that's the way it is. This dude hasn't said anything too bad, try not to get too upset.


Edit: this guy certainly didn't shout FHRITP. Let's get a grip guys.

lol no. I know. I brought it up because I was seriously confused on the positions of some arguments. I thought dobwal and I were on different positions and Shifty and I on the same positions. I may have read it wrong, but I thought he meant that he should be abel to say whatever he wanted (regardless of what it was) when he was not with his company. So I brought forward the FHRITP firing video.

That being said, turns out we are actually on the same position, and Shifty and I are a bit separated.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Glassdoor is an anonymous site. Its relation to free speech is probably the inability for companies to get the gov't to pass laws that de-anonymized profiles for sites like these for the strict purpose of retaliation.

No, because that would be illegal and against the rights of the employee! Everything that's been said by this guy is both legal and true. Several people here might not like it because they're emotionally linked to the console, or because they deal with Microsoft. That doesn't make it wrong!!

 

[dobwal]

No, because that would be illegal and against the rights of the employee! Everything that's been said by this guy is both legal and true. Several people here might not like it because they're emotionally linked to the console, or because they deal with Microsoft. That doesn't make it wrong!!

May be where you live. But firing people without cause is pretty much legal in most "right to work" states here in the US. The best you might get in those states is to have the employer foot the bill for your unemployment payments.

I see the guy's statement as unprofessional but think the guy shouldn't be fired. At most Dice should tell him how his statements may affect the company and its partners and he may show a little more diplomacy in his statements going forward or use an anonymous account if he wants to talk as freely as possible.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Then employee laws are clearly in a better place in Europe then.

 

[dobwal]

Then employee laws are clearly in a better place in Europe then.

Sure are.

 

[Cjail]

In EU if you say something tha damages the company you work for you can be fired.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

In EU if you say somethong tha damages the company you work for you can be fired.

Read Glassdoor. You can do it anonymously. If a company does fire you, an employee can contact a solicitor.

 

[Cjail]

Read Glassdoor. You can do it anonymously. If a company does fire you, an employee can contact a solicitor.

Do what?
You mean express your opinion?!

I am not familiar with every EU constitution but in general the "principle" is that you can't fire someone without a "just cause".

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Do what?
You mean express your opinion?!

I not familiar with every EU constitution but in general the "principle" is that you can't fire someone without a "just cause".

Agreed. I can't talk more. Girlfriend will kill me.

 

[Davros]

I do know in the u.s you can be fired for refusing to lie
it happened to 2 fox news employees they refused to lie about a product causing cancer by monsanto (already banned in europe for that reason)
they were fired, they took fox news to court and won, fox appealed and won the appeal.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

People only grumble about things that are wrong in their view. Companies wouldn't need to hush their employees from bad mouthing the management if the management was actually good. If I'm a slacker, I shouldn't be surprised to hear people calling me out as such. Obviously when it becomes libel or serious, that's something else. But just airing one's views is an entitlement to being human. Especially when talking about a product in a competitive market place. Everyone else is entitled to an opinion on whether XB1 is faster than PS4 or not. Why shouldn't game devs, or employees of either company, or AMD employees, or friends and families of the same? 'Professionalism' means one has to keep one's mouth shut, but being human means one wants to share one's views. We have anonymous internet personalities to allow that without professional repercussions. Those repercussions shouldn't happen IMO, although that's headed to RSCPA talk.

Putting it another way, the relationship between MS as a corporate entity and DICE as a corporate entity and EA as a corporate entity should not be affected in the slightest by what an individual of either company says. If MS were to penalise DICE somehow because their console having less flops was called out as having less flops, that'd be the height of unprofessionalism. Corporate dealings should be on the level of contracts and rapport. I'd even say a lot of 'professional misconduct' repercussions are actually people acting like emotional people. I've seen management use the 'professionalism' card to counter actions they dislike, and of course they turn a blind eye to unprofessionalism they don't mind or are part of.

Even when management is good, you will have people grumbling about it. Not everyone is pleased with every decision that is made. Some are more suited to certain jobs than others.

Even when the subject of the grumbling likely deserves it, it is still unprofessional for an employee to voice it in a forum where it can easily be linked back to the employer.

Does that mean he doesn't have the right to voice his opinions? No. Having the right to say what you want, when you want is completely orthogonal to whether it is professional or unprofessional behavior.

Many companies attempt to hire people with personal character that matches what they as a company want to represent. If an employee's behavior is at odds with that, then they are obviously unsuitable for that company and shouldn't be surprised if that company fires them for that behavior.

Note that it doesn't always lead to job termination. If the behavior isn't to egregious, sometimes the skills of the employee may still be valuable or it's not worth having to pay unemployment benefits to the employee. They'll be kept on the payroll, but the behavior will be noted in their employee records to see if the problem persists or gets worse. They'll likely get talked to at some point by either their supervisor or HR.

Again. Everyone has the right to voice whatever opinion they have about their employer or their employer's business partners. And more often than not, if they are at least somewhat discrete, there won't be any repercussions because no one of importance (employer or employer's business partners) will hear about it. Like if you talk with a bunch of mates down at a pub.

And again, that has nothing to do with whether it is professional or unprofessional behavior.

A high profile job that is a good way to see this in action is sports. Many players have been traded (basically fired) or had their contract terminated when their behavior in their personal lives has been at odds with the best interests of the sports club they represent. They broke no laws, and their freedom of speech wasn't impinged upon. However, there were consequences to their unprofessional behavior. Badmouthing teammates or the coaches or the owners or even the president of the league can lead to contract termination and even being banned from ever being employed in that league ever again. Note: that sports often has a much more lenient view of what constitutes professional and unprofessional behavior.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Most normal people know when to STFU ... Freely making statements about consoles isn't some exercise in justice.

My statement isn't about what the Dice employee said, its about your assertion that employees should be protected for their public statements during their off hours. I provided extreme examples

And I provide extreme responses.

...where it plainfully obvious that level of protection can do way more harm than good.

Yep. Balance. The argument here is about where that balance is IMO. I think we all recognise and agree with the principles involved in both sides of the arguments - employees shouldn't be allowed to speak with impunity as if some Human Right, but then having a corporation (or government) impact your social life isn't right either. What's different now versus thousands of years of 'getting by' is that 'private' can be public. People can engage in conversations as if private, as that's natural communication, but then the rest of the world can see. There's the argument that people need to learn how to use public communications (basically don't. Separate them from private life), and also the argument that people need to mellow and view internet postings with the same casual acceptance of everyday speech.

Let's try a more moderate hypothetical. A Sony game dev goes to dinner with some friends in a swanky restaurant. They chew the fat over the starter, and then as they wait for the main course to arrive, talk turns to opinions of the consoles. Said dev is asked what his favourite console is, and he replies Wii U saying that the others lack family focus. Or whatever. They eat, go home, all is good.

Next morning he's called into the office and his boss, who was at the same restaurant and overheard the conversation, tells the guy he shouldn't diss the company product and gives a formal written warning. Is that okay?

Then there's a time warp and the dev is back at the restaurant. He sees his boss and when asked what's his favourite console, refuses to answer because he doesn't want his opinion to backfire. Is it right that he feels he can't express his opinion? Or should he give a false answer and have his friends not appreciate his real values? Or should he say one thing and secretly text them the real opinion?? It's a situation that shouldn't pose a problem in my view. His personal opinion shouldn't impact his job. The thing that impacts his job should be his ability to do his job. If he's a great dev, he should be allowed to say he feels consoles should be more family focussed and he wishes Sony redirected some of their investments in that direction. His boss should hear his opinion and not take offence, and either agree to disagree or consider if the guy's opinion has merit and perhaps could be acted upon.

And should it matter whether that guy is expressing his opinion at a table with 5 friends, or 20, or a dev meet with 100 devs, or a forum with 1000 members, or posted on a Tweet? IMO no. It's just a POV.

 

[PeanutButterOnPickles]

Yea that's fine.

The issue with social media today, and it wasn't an issue in the past, is that social media has much stronger implications today than it ever has. Our youth is so connected through so many formats of social media, it makes to breaks companies. (See kickstarter games! See Indie Games) Social media, for instance on Neogaf has had an impact on the big players in the gaming market. Think of all the reversals that occurred within MS.

So that being said. I'm not going to say there are laws or what not. But a part of being a professional today is recognizing the soap box power that social media has. You want to stand on the soap box and speak your mind, go for it. But there are consequences good and bad for it.

Neogaf is essentially a stealth PlayStation clubhouse that only invites outsiders on the most boringness' day of the week (Fridays).

Anyway, I don't see the big deal with saying the other box is weaker. This Santa Claus notion of hardware specifications just looks silly anyway. When it's all said and done, make good videogames.

 

[Davros]

If a company expects to have any say in what I say or how I act 24 hours a day they should bloody well pay me for 24 hours a day

 

[Cjail]

And I provide extreme responses.

Yep. Balance. The argument here is about where that balance is IMO. I think we all recognise and agree with the principles involved in both sides of the arguments - employees shouldn't be allowed to speak with impunity as if some Human Right, but then having a corporation (or government) impact your social life isn't right either. What's different now versus thousands of years of 'getting by' is that 'private' can be public. People can engage in conversations as if private, as that's natural communication, but then the rest of the world can see. There's the argument that people need to learn how to use public communications (basically don't. Separate them from private life), and also the argument that people need to mellow and view internet postings with the same casual acceptance of everyday speech.

Let's try a more moderate hypothetical. A Sony game dev goes to dinner with some friends in a swanky restaurant. They chew the fat over the starter, and then as they wait for the main course to arrive, talk turns to opinions of the consoles. Said dev is asked what his favourite console is, and he replies Wii U saying that the others lack family focus. Or whatever. They eat, go home, all is good.

Next morning he's called into the office and his boss, who was at the same restaurant and overheard the conversation, tells the guy he shouldn't diss the company product and gives a formal written warning. Is that okay?

Then there's a time warp and the dev is back at the restaurant. He sees his boss and when asked what's his favourite console, refuses to answer because he doesn't want his opinion to backfire. Is it right that he feels he can't express his opinion? Or should he give a false answer and have his friends not appreciate his real values? Or should he say one thing and secretly text them the real opinion?? It's a situation that shouldn't pose a problem in my view. His personal opinion shouldn't impact his job. The thing that impacts his job should be his ability to do his job. If he's a great dev, he should be allowed to say he feels consoles should be more family focussed and he wishes Sony redirected some of their investments in that direction. His boss should hear his opinion and not take offence, and either agree to disagree or consider if the guy's opinion has merit and perhaps could be acted upon.

And should it matter whether that guy is expressing his opinion at a table with 5 friends, or 20, or a dev meet with 100 devs, or a forum with 1000 members, or posted on a Tweet? IMO no. It's just a POV.

The employee can sue his employer/boss.
If my boss does to me something he is not legally allowed to do I go to my syndical representative or my lawyer and fight back.
Really employee are not defeceless.
Where and how you express your opinion also makes the difference, it's the difference between private and public discussion.

If your boss hears you at the bar/testaurant you:
1)were talking so loud you could be heard from afar so no intrusion of your privacy.
2)you could be heard only by those right next to you so he did spy on you and then he violated your privacy.

If you boss reads what you wrote ABOUT YOUR JOB on your twittter account that can be read by millions, the you can't possibly defend yourself by saying "it was private" because it wasn't.

 

[London Geezer]

If a company expects to have any say in what I say or how I act 24 hours a day they should bloody well pay me for 24 hours a day

Many positions, like mine, deal in a world where confidentiality is paramount. So yes, they would be quite interested to know if I ever talked about some things I shouldn't have, even in private.

 

[Cjail]

Many positions, like mine, deal in a world where confidentiality is paramount...

In which division of MI6 do you work?

 

[London Geezer]

It doesn't exist. I don't exist.

 

[dobwal]

It doesn't exist. I don't exist.

Well, I hope your cover is never blown. Or one fateful day, Shifty may find himself strapped to a chair with mascara running down his face and a gun to his head. Looking terrified as some shady figures asks you about the whereabouts of some USB with some secret files on it.

"Where is the animation and physics code for the all male DLC for the new DOAX?"

"I swear to god I will end you if you touch a single hair on his head!!!"

"Now, Now, Mr Londoy Boy. All we need is that USB and you and your lovely gentlemen fellow over there will be on your merry way."

 

[Davros]

London-boy aka james bondage double ooh seven - licensed to thrill