Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[XpiderMX]

MS could be in HMC for other reasons too like their server division not necessary for next console.

Microsoft is software only in their server division. I don't know why MS is in HMC for servers if they don't produce hardware in server side.

 

[ERP]

Microsoft is software only in their server division. I don't know why MS is in HMC for servers if they don't produce hardware in server side.

They have plenty of hardware in research.
MS is going to be involved in anything that they see as important going forwards. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[fehu]

The first commercial products are slated for 2014, with 4Gb and 8Gb cubes with 160GBps of throughput, about 10x what you get out of an entire standard DDR3 memory module today.

I don't understand how a cube can have the bw of all the layers using standard amount of pins
damn borg technology!

 

[Brimstone]

MS could be in HMC for other reasons too like their server division not necessary for next console.

Sure...but IBM is fabbing HMC parts at Fishkill for Micron and the Xbox 720 is going to need lots of bandwidth if the teraflop CPU rumor is true.

 

[Hornet]

The End of The GPU Roadmap

Now that the next generation is closer, do you believe that software developers will go back to a sofware rasterizer approach, as discussed by Tim Sweeney in his talk of a few years ago? Do you think Microsoft and Sony are designing their hardware with this in mind? Tim Sweeney seemed to wish for a Xeon Phi type hardware (he explicitly mentions cache coherency), but I guess a current AMD or NVIDIA GPUs are flexible enough to move in that direction.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

No. There's no suitable processor available for present. We'll still have GPUs (APUs) as they currently are in the next boxes.

 

[onQ]

Now that the next generation is closer, do you believe that software developers will go back to a sofware rasterizer approach, as discussed by Tim Sweeney in his talk of a few years ago? Do you think Microsoft and Sony are designing their hardware with this in mind? Tim Sweeney seemed to wish for a Xeon Phi type hardware (he explicitly mentions cache coherency), but I guess a current AMD or NVIDIA GPUs are flexible enough to move in that direction.

If the GPGPU in the PS4's APU is used as a helper for the CPU for Compute tasks then that should be pretty close to what you're talking about.

 

[arijoytunir]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34282049&postcount=191

 

[Shifty Geezer]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34282049&postcount=191

Don't just post links. Post an explanation of what's in it, why we should care to follow it, and importantly if it's anything more than just some random person with a random guess - we're quite capable of having random guesses ourselves without needing to link to other fora! If it's not a (semi) official announcement or seriously supported rumour, please don't link to it.

 

[arijoytunir]

Don't just post links. Post an explanation of what's in it, why we should care to follow it, and importantly if it's anything more than just some random person with a random guess - we're quite capable of having random guesses ourselves without needing to link to other fora! If it's not a (semi) official announcement or seriously supported rumour, please don't link to it.

sorry . i am new to this forum . thanks for enlightening me .

 

[MrFox]

Sure...but IBM is fabbing HMC parts at Fishkill for Micron and the Xbox 720 is going to need lots of bandwidth if the teraflop CPU rumor is true.

I think it's interesting that Microsoft doesn't have any product that would require HMC except the xbox. It's useless for tablet (wideIO or XDR-mobile are much better). Also HMC requires TSV, which is extremely difficult to achieve with combining different fabs. Could IBM be making the CPU, memory controller, and the memory itself? Is IBM still in the game for the CPU?

 

[Gipsel]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34282049&postcount=191

Isn't that from the same guy making up something what AlexV commented already a few weeks back?

Please don't bring that gunk here, that's utter noise, and the gentleman spewing them would make Perlin quite proud (I've had the dubious pleasure of being expose of some other nonsense from the same source).

 

[arijoytunir]

Same Seronx who speculated previously on PS4 and Xbox 720. He is not an insider and these are not leaks just speculation by someone who follows rumors and is very informed about AMD products.

Originally Posted by http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34282049&postcount=191:
Playstation 4 is using Thebe-J which hasn't finished yet nor is it related to the Jaguar or Trinity or Kaveri architectures. The only one that is showing any signs of finalization is Xbox's Kryptos which is a >450 mm² chip. To get back on Thebe-J it was delayed from Trinity side-by-side development to Kaveri side-by-side development.

I assume if they are going to use Jaguar it is going to be in a big.LITTLE formation. Which will have them in a configuration where the Jaguar portion will control all of the system, os, etc stuff that generally isn't compute intensive. While the Thebe portion will control all of the gaming, hpc, etc. stuff that is generally compute intensive. Since, each year the performance part of the Playstation Orbis was upgraded it is safe to assume that they are going for an APU with the specs.


First:
A8-3850 + HD 7670
400 VLIW5 + 480 VLIW5 => 880 VLIW5 -> VLIW4 => 704

Second:
A10-5700 + HD-7670
384 VLIW4 + 480 VLIW5 => 864 VLIW4/5 -> VLIW4 => 768

I have heard that the third generation of the test Orbis uses an APU with GCN2.
Unknown APU + HD8770
384 GCN2 + 768 GCN2 -> 1152 GCN2

It is assumed that the APU only has four cores because AMD doesn't plan to increase the core count other than the GPU cores from now on.

If I'm reading this correctly then 1 Jaguar CPU package (4 X86 jaguar CPUs) and 3 higher performance CPUs which the "side by side development with Kaveri" might mean the same CPUs as in Kaveri. Jaguar (lower power more efficient) CPUs control the OS (Little) and Kaveri type CPUs (big) would be used where needed. 2014 AMD designs choose the best CPU for a task; the example given by AMD is choosing to use the GPU or CPU for compute tasks based on which would do this better. This can be extended to use more power efficient CPUs for OS tasks (little) and Desktop CPUs for games (big).

Side by side development: I assume test chips on a few wafers at a time have been made every 2-3 months or so for more than a year. These wafers probably contain multiple designs at the same time as long as they are compatible with the same process. For example Thebe-J chips would be included with Kaveri and other AMD projects like discrete GPUs that all use the same process.

I don't know how accurate Seronx might be but his speculation does allow for a wider view on next generation designs.

post by jeff_rigby - neogaf
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44834117&postcount=2282

 

[liolio]

post by jeff_rigby - neogaf
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44834117&postcount=2282

That is a lot of BS.
Kaveri is delayed and would only include GCN. We have not heard much about the replacement of GCN being tape out.

 

[3dilettante]

Full cooperation for big.LITTLE in the same sense that ARM is initially providing it requires full ISA compatibility. You can't migrate a thread to a core that blows up on instructions it can't handle.
Jaguar is not fully compatible with any Bulldozer core.

 

[bkilian]

Sure...but IBM is fabbing HMC parts at Fishkill for Micron and the Xbox 720 is going to need lots of bandwidth if the teraflop CPU rumor is true.

It's not. Not even the fastest consumer CPU on the horizon in the next year can boast teraflop performance, do you really think they would put one into a budget priced console? The I7-3960X, a $1K CPU, performs at about 140 gigaflops.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Unless the CPU is an APU.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, I mean technically, the PS3 had a CPU way beyond anything that the PC had at that point. Heck, 5x Cell is already over 1.1TF.

Of course, if they are somehow going to include x86 cores, then chances are slim those will amount to much, but I don't consider it unlikely at all to see some hybrid of CPU, APU and GPU cores that can somehow work together efficiently.

 

[liolio]

Yeah, I mean technically, the PS3 had a CPU way beyond anything that the PC had at that point. Heck, 5x Cell is already over 1.1TF.

Of course, if they are somehow going to include x86 cores, then chances are slim those will amount to much, but I don't consider it unlikely at all to see some hybrid of CPU, APU and GPU cores that can somehow work together efficiently.

That is where we could start a fight on semantic

The CPU in the PS3 sucked, Xenon CPu cores sucked just a tad less. The CPU in PS3 is the PPU/PPE.
The Cell as a whole may better be described by the word APU that CPU. Actually we don't have a proper word but accelerated processing unit pretty much describes the Cell perfectly.

End of the semantic fight

 

[Shifty Geezer]

post by jeff_rigby - neogaf

jeff used to post here. He posted reams and reams of theorising about HTML5 coming to PS3 and the XMB being replaced by an HTML5 interface and all sorts. Lots of crazy associations being made even to the point of suggesting FW numbers were clues to HTML5 appearing. We kicked him off the board for generating crazy noise and derailing threads. Knowing the source is jeff_rigby informs me I can ignore it. If he is right with any prediction, it's due to fluke rather than analysis and piecing together the clues.

That is where we could start a fight on semantic

The CPU in the PS3 sucked, Xenon CPu cores sucked just a tad less. The CPU in PS3 is the PPU/PPE.

Nope. The PS3 has an asymmetric multiprocessor CPU. The SPEs are complete processors in their own right, not limited like acceleration/maths units.