Porsche calls Nissan cheaters!

[nutball]

Pfft. Porsche is too busy making billions on the financial markets to bother with speedy lap times.

They can afford to buy the Nurburgring now and make it specially shorter for Porsches.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Not to mention the GT-R has a superior AWD system.

That's really the biggest thing considering that traction management and power distribution and so on is all quite black magic to a lot of people. The fact that there is so much control put in the hands of software means that it is just that much more flexible and hence, that much more powerful (powerful in this case not in a mechanical sense).

I look for instance at the comparison between the Lancer EVO X and the current iteration of the WRX STi. The Subaru has more power, more torque, more displacement, and weighs quite a bit less than the Mitsubishi. The Mitsu has its electronic gadgetry and nifty power distribution system that makes it possible to put the car into a one-wheel drive condition when the computer deems it necessary. No surprise that in a straight line, the WRX beats the EVO. Put the comparison in a road course and the picture is reversed. The black magic just makes that much of a difference. It also makes the EVO, in a lot of ways, accessible to a novice in that the second brain kind of makes the car a little more idiot-proof when driving fast.

Based on what a lot of people seem to say about Porsches, putting them around a track is pretty much straight out of a textbook. They lose grip predictably and hold grip predictably. It's just that straightforward of a car. When there's a vehicle that kind of goes a little outside that sort of conventional wisdom in terms of its handling and dynamics, I'd be surprised if a driver who was used to Porsches all their life would be able to take that other vehicle out with a non-conventional approach. Their brains would constantly tell them "no, you can't get away with that" when in fact, they probably could.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I look for instance at the comparison between the Lancer EVO X and the current iteration of the WRX STi. The Subaru has more power, more torque, more displacement, and weighs quite a bit less than the Mitsubishi. The Mitsu has its electronic gadgetry and nifty power distribution system that makes it possible to put the car into a one-wheel drive condition when the computer deems it necessary. No surprise that in a straight line, the WRX beats the EVO. Put the comparison in a road course and the picture is reversed. The black magic just makes that much of a difference. It also makes the EVO, in a lot of ways, accessible to a novice in that the second brain kind of makes the car a little more idiot-proof when driving fast.

Subaru is little faster in a straight line, but from what I heard they are pretty much neck and neck on a track... I also think that this electronic black magic thing has been blown way out of proportion. I think they are good for safety or making driving easier, but doesn't really help on a fast lap on a dry track. GTR for example has a better weight distribution than the Porcshe and I'm sure that plays much more in the time than any of it's electronics. If the electronics constantly have to modify the power output then I'm seeing it losing seconds instead of gaining them. Mechanical grip, power to weight ratio and balance are the most important things in a road car.

 

[Sonic]

Subaru is little faster in a straight line, but from what I heard they are pretty much neck and neck on a track... I also think that this electronic black magic thing has been blown way out of proportion. I think they are good for safety or making driving easier, but doesn't really help on a fast lap on a dry track. GTR for example has a better weight distribution than the Porcshe and I'm sure that plays much more in the time than any of it's electronics. If the electronics constantly have to modify the power output then I'm seeing it losing seconds instead of gaining them. Mechanical grip, power to weight ratio and balance are the most important things in a road car.

I wouldn't quite say that when it comes to Nissan's electronic management of AWD on the GT-R. It really is world class and helps the car along more than other factors. ATESSA is something that does get overhyped a bit, but then again I've never driven an AWD car that is as forgiving and easy to pick up as one of the new GT-R's. It might be black magic to some (even to me a little) but damn that black magic is better than the white magic I've seen in Porche's AWD systems. Sure there are other important factors like balance, p/w ratio, and grip that are the bread and butter of performance cars. When you add Nissan's AWD management software into the mix it increases those factors by a good bit, giving you far more leverage going into corners than you would have without it.

It sure as hell beats my Diablo's shitty AWD system.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

What kind of barbarian would buy a awd Diablo in the first place? Such a monsterous car (you do have a yellow or purple one now do you?!) and than they mess it up with awd. I mean, people are buying these type of cars because they want a sport/supercar right? than why do something lame as awd? these type of cars should be rwd period.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I wouldn't quite say that when it comes to Nissan's electronic management of AWD on the GT-R. It really is world class and helps the car along more than other factors. ATESSA is something that does get overhyped a bit, but then again I've never driven an AWD car that is as forgiving and easy to pick up as one of the new GT-R's. It might be black magic to some (even to me a little) but damn that black magic is better than the white magic I've seen in Porche's AWD systems. Sure there are other important factors like balance, p/w ratio, and grip that are the bread and butter of performance cars. When you add Nissan's AWD management software into the mix it increases those factors by a good bit, giving you far more leverage going into corners than you would have without it.

It sure as hell beats my Diablo's shitty AWD system.

It would be nice to have some GTR laptimes with and without the computer assistance on a dry race track. I'm fairly confident that a professional driver could drive equal laptimes without the electronics, atleast if he could setup the power distribution the way he wanted.

 

[Sonic]

It would be nice to have some GTR laptimes with and without the computer assistance on a dry race track. I'm fairly confident that a professional driver could drive equal laptimes without the electronics, atleast if he could setup the power distribution the way he wanted.

What if the professional driver would like to set up the power distribution on the fly to match each turn he wants to make. I'm not sure of any tool that links directly into the brain to make that kind of change the driver would think is appropriate for that specific instant on the track.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

What kind of barbarian would buy a awd Diablo in the first place? Such a monsterous car (you do have a yellow or purple one now do you?!) and than they mess it up with awd. I mean, people are buying these type of cars because they want a sport/supercar right? than why do something lame as awd? these type of cars should be rwd period.

Have you ever driven a car?

I mean seriously, how can you make such comments about AWD, when in your own head you run around thinking that Alfa Romeos are sporty cars (FWD!!!! FWD!!!) .

While AWD may not be as much fun as RWD in some cases, its often faster and safer. Aspecially when you start having a lot of power, rwd just struggles with grip, AWD= grip all the time. Most AMG mercs are so overpowered that RWD really starts beeing a problem, your not able to put all that power into the asphalt you just spin all the time..

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

There is a difference between sporty and a supercar. You can be sporty with FWD (alfa is going back to RWD btw ) just as you can be a sporty person going to the gym and stuff. But that doesnt make you a athlete.

And who cares about safety? Do you buy these cars because they are insanely fast and exiting or do you buy them because you want your kids to be safe during the school run? AWD, fine, but not on these types of cars. With new government policy's and green party bitching big engines are already on the line, please dont screw up what we have left putting AWD in all these cars. All the really brutal supercars dont have AWD, but RWD. Gumpert, ascari, pagani, zonda.

Aspecially when you start having a lot of power, rwd just struggles with grip, AWD= grip all the time. Most AMG mercs are so overpowered that RWD really starts beeing a problem, your not able to put all that power into the asphalt you just spin all the time..

If the rest of your car is shitty designed it does yes. But how come you have the FFX, Gumpert and that new pagani zonda that all howsomewhere between 700 a 800bph with no problems putting that power down on the rear wheels? Thats because they are designed to do that.

 

[Sonic]

It is black. Not yellow or purple. It was bought because I enjoy driving it and the looks of it. It isn't just for show either, I take it to a few tracks fairly often throughout the spring, summer, and fall. I don't see it being AWD as a problem or makes it any less of a supercar. It's not the only supercar I've got either. Nor is it my favorite.

My little Lotus Elise is a much better driver going through turns and is extremely fun driving through the mountains where the road winds in tight little curves that really show you what it's made of.

I love the Pagani Zonda as well, but I will not make the effort or trouble getting one in the US. Maybe when I move to Europe (if McCain is elected) I'll look into it. But not now, not in the US. It is a really nice car though and I've only ever seen two in person. I was half tempted to ask the owner to let me sit in the passenger seat while they drove it around the track but considering they had professionals right next to them the entire time on the track I wouldn't have gotten to anyway.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Hmm to bad, I like the more funky colors better on lambo's. But black should give it some evil look too.

But what about just ordering that Zonda already? you only have to wait a minimum of 2 years for it anyway

Dont know what country you plan of maybe moving to, but I can come and see it when you do right right? Must be sweet to be able to buy those cars. Hope im gonna earn that kind of money someday too

 

[Moloch]

There is a difference between sporty and a supercar. You can be sporty with FWD (alfa is going back to RWD btw ) just as you can be a sporty person going to the gym and stuff. But that doesnt make you a athlete.

And who cares about safety? Do you buy these cars because they are insanely fast and exiting or do you buy them because you want your kids to be safe during the school run? AWD, fine, but not on these types of cars. With new government policy's and green party bitching big engines are already on the line, please dont screw up what we have left putting AWD in all these cars. All the really brutal supercars dont have AWD, but RWD. Gumpert, ascari, pagani, zonda.



If the rest of your car is shitty designed it does yes. But how come you have the FFX, Gumpert and that new pagani zonda that all howsomewhere between 700 a 800bph with no problems putting that power down on the rear wheels? Thats because they are designed to do that.

A) What kind of tires do you think those supercars have and how long do they last? (rhetorical)
B) What makes you think that either of those cars wouldnt launch of a helluva lot better if they had AWD?

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

A) Does that matter? I dont think anyone buying a half a million dollar car is going to care much about tire ware now would they?
B) What makes you think that companies like Gumpert who's only goal is to make a fast as possible car wouldnt use awd if it would be faster? For the same reason audi/lambo actually removes the awd system from the racing versions of the murci and gallardo? For the same reason non of the top racing classes is using awd cars with the exception of WRC? If it would be faster, I think they'd use it wouldnt they?

 

[Moloch]

You missed the point, those super cars have much grippier tires so of course they can handle the power better.. duh.
The FXX are total track cars where as the lambo is not, if you dont understand that then I'm sorry

Oh and you know that AWD is banned is some forms of racing dont you?

 

[Sonic]

AWD is indeed banned in plenty of forms of racing.

You know tongue_of_colicob, The Netherlands is just one of those countries I'm looking at moving to. So of course you can come visit me if I ever decide to get a Zonda. But I hear you guys are much more into bicycles (which just happens to be my main method of transportation in SF) than driving around 11 - 17 MPG cars.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

You missed the point, those super cars have much grippier tires so of course they can handle the power better.. duh.
The FXX are total track cars where as the lambo is not, if you dont understand that then I'm sorry

Oh and you know that AWD is banned is some forms of racing dont you?

No your the one missing the point. You say AWD is needed to bring to power down. No its not. To take the merc example, they should just put better tires on if the problem is that the tires cant handel the power. That doesnt has anything to do with awd being better or not.

And you can scrap the FXX and change it for the Enzo. The are basically the same car though the FXX uses a upgraded version of the Enzo v12 and a better gearbox and better aero but the chassis is the same and the Enzo doesnt really have any problems putting its 650bhp down either. Same goes for alot of other non track high powered cars btw.

And as I said, lambo even removes the awd in their racing cars even when its not banned. Their new gallordo 540 only leauge btw doesnt have the awd. If its faster, than why remove it?

AWD is indeed banned in plenty of forms of racing.

You know tongue_of_colicob, The Netherlands is just one of those countries I'm looking at moving to. So of course you can come visit me if I ever decide to get a Zonda. But I hear you guys are much more into bicycles (which just happens to be my main method of transportation in SF) than driving around 11 - 17 MPG cars.

Better keep in mind that the fuel prices here are the highest in the world. We also got tons of speed bumps on the road (better stock up some noses for your Diablo), the roads are always crowded, there are tons of speed camera's and ofcourse Koos spee's army of undercover agents watching you drive.

I dont know about bikes. You dont see too much of them. Especially outside of the summer when its wet and cold most people dont drive their motorcycle. And you'd have to wear a helmet (dont know if you do, whenever I see americans on motorcycles they never wear any lethers or helmets which I think is pretty insane).

 

[Moloch]

I know what the FXX is thank you...
In tarmac racing AWD is not needed because the grip the slicks offer, or the benefit is so small it's not worth it.
It's a bit different with road cars where tires are a wee bit different

 

[Sonic]

Oh I didn't mean motorcycles. I meant bicycles. I'm a big fan of bikes (the ones with pedals) simply because it really is a damn good workout and easy transportation in a city area going from point A to B.

I'm not a huge fan of motorcycles either. Far too slow in the corners for me when compared to cars and the acceleration on the top end doesn't really compare with what can be done in a car. I do not have the balls to go past 100 MPH on a motorcycle.

I probably would sell the Diablo or keep it in the secured storage I have in California as I do plan on visiting a lot if I ever do move. It would be irresponsible of me to just leave and leave these businesses unattended. Also need to make sure wherever I move to has some pretty good education for my son.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Oh yeah people ride their bikes pretty often here. Stores and everything are usually not to far away and most of our city's are old so they arnt designed to handel alot of cars so often its alot faster to do your shopping and all by bike than when using a car.

Im not sure about the school system here. When I was in high school I didnt think the level of education was that great and there is a big lack of respect for teachers in some school where students basically decide whats going on during class. Than again, last week on dutch tv there was this discussion with obama and mcain that the US school level also sucked so I dont know how the two hold up against each other. Belgium does seem to have a good school system (and healthcare apperantly is better than in the netherlands too). Maybe go live close to the boarder. Than you can get best of both.

Though I dont think the people living in the south of holland (limburg, arwin also lives there) are that nice. I've been living here for 2 months now and the people here arnt as outgoing or polite as in the north (where all the big city's are). And they got a horrible accent but thats not something you will notice. OTOH there arnt alot of foreigners here so there's less trouble with that. Dont have to worry about getting your ass kicked for nothing so much.

 

[DJ12]

the Enzo doesnt really have any problems putting its 650bhp down either. Same goes for alot of other non track high powered cars btw.

Of course it does, that's why it's got launch control and traction control.

Don't use either and see how long it sits there making smoke if you try and do a full power launch.

And as I said, lambo even removes the awd in their racing cars even when its not banned. Their new gallordo 540 only leauge btw doesnt have the awd. If its faster, than why remove it?

Weight is key, AWD is far heavier than RWD, but anyway Lamborghini are hardly the go to guys about racing cars so I wouldn't ask them why they remove it. I would ask Alfa why they cannot win a thing in touring car racing with 2wd systems when they were dominating everything when they were using AWD though.