Playstation 5 [PS5] [Release November 12 2020]

[Deleted member 11852]

Those that were surprised just didn’t pay attention. Everything from the first PS4 design pointed to making future compatibility a priority and then everything about the PS4 Pro an PS5s hardware design made it abundantly clear that hardware level NC had been a priority from the start. Then Cerny was pretty clear about it too (though some misunderstood his top 100 remark), etc.

I took what Mark Cerny said about PS4 Pro and compatibility and came away with a very different take.

"First, we doubled the GPU size by essentially placing it next to a mirrored version of itself, sort of like the wings of a butterfly. That gives us an extremely clean way to support the existing 700 titles," Cerny explains, detailing how the Pro switches into its 'base' compatibility mode. "We just turn off half the GPU and run it at something quite close to the original GPU."

This in particular I can only read as compatibility with code written only for PS4 being so problematic on Pro, that they have to pretend half the Pro's GPU doesn't even exist and clock it as close as possible. Clocks really shouldn't make a great difference unless you're using some quite poor practices with regard to timings. This suggested to me that PS4 and the dev systems and the code output were not ready for future hardware, nor that they were thinking about it seriously.

And it's principally statements like these that resulted in my having very low expectations of b/c on PS5. Until Sony actually announced it I really didn't think it was be a feature. In Road to PS5 Mark Cerny explained that AMD had to include all the ancient logic for the lower tier b/c modes which suggests code was not developed with future hardware in mind. Plenty of code for Pro as well, hence three b/c modes.

Microsoft's approach is vastly better is indicative of a design intended to support code to run on today's hardware, tomorrows and so on.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The DS is nice and snappy, I haven’t really tried Astrobot yet so I haven’t felt the whole triggers/haptics really, I’ll give it a go tomorrow. Haptics are definitely nice on DS and Miles, I’d say they feeling is much more defined. High definition rumble

Astrobot really does show off the DualSense well. They introduce features gradually and they continue to impress. It's not just the haptics, it's the use of sound on the controller to re-inforce the haptics. Very neat.

It's also not a bad platform experience in it's own right and is a real fan service for PlayStation. I can see you wanting, and enjoying, getting the platinum.

 

[JPT]

Not liking the ui yet, mostly because things i want to do, i know how to do on ps4, but not on ps5 yet. So it feels clunky and cumbersome to do certain things yet.

 

[Arwin]

I took what Mark Cerny said about PS4 Pro and compatibility and came away with a very different take.



This in particular I can only read as compatibility with code written only for PS4 being so problematic on Pro, that they have to pretend half the Pro's GPU doesn't even exist and clock it as close as possible. Clocks really shouldn't make a great difference unless you're using some quite poor practices with regard to timings. This suggested to me that PS4 and the dev systems and the code output were not ready for future hardware, nor that they were thinking about it seriously.

And it's principally statements like these that resulted in my having very low expectations of b/c on PS5. Until Sony actually announced it I really didn't think it was be a feature. In Road to PS5 Mark Cerny explained that AMD had to include all the ancient logic for the lower tier b/c modes which suggests code was not developed with future hardware in mind. Plenty of code for Pro as well, hence three b/c modes.

Microsoft's approach is vastly better is indicative of a design intended to support code to run on today's hardware, tomorrows and so on.

It is a different approach. Sony’s take allows developers to go all out on the hardware and then the next two iterations that are very close are guaranteed to work as advertised on the new hardware, by virtue of the new hardware being able to replicate the old hardware at a very low level. Generations beyond that will be powerful enough to abstract out the hardware of more than two iterations (or a full generation) and just simulate the differences.

Pure virtualization I don’t believe ends up being that big a difference as how successful pure virtualization ends up being in terms of performance is also dependent on how close the underlying hardware matches the virtualized hardware. I think you see this in the Xbox Series X to some extent because the previous generation software there is often still limited by the same resolution and frame-rate constraints. There are, to my knowledge, not vastly more previous gen titles running at higher resolutions and frame-rates on Series X.

This is also why PS3 software has been the exception, that being such a vastly different architecture with very extreme local performance differences that it is hard to emulate. Thus they aren’t in a similar position to Microsoft’s in that regard, and you can’t really compare much here.

Of course, if Sony would force developers to stick to their version of DirectX with little opportunity to change anything then it would be a little bit easier to do so, but that too was not really possible with the PS3.

The PS5 now should be able to emulate the PS3 and PS2 however but here I think Sony no longer sees a great benefit and decide to rely on PS Now instead. This could change but for now this is the area where Xbox and PlayStation differ most and Xbox has the advantage.

But we were talking about expectations about PS5’s backward compatibility with PS4 titles being exceeded by many, and here I maintain that Sony has from the start designed the PS4 Pro and the PS5 to be compatible and also that it was part of the decision to go to more generic hardware with PS4, to ensure this would be easier to do in the future (including being able to offer the software through cloud solutions running increasingly more powerful hardware).

 

[Pete]

Yeah, there are no folders for games yet. I only used them a little like for keeping all the PSVR stuff together and smaller indie games but now my library is already massive day one, I think folders are going to more needed than ever so I hope this is coming in a future firmware patch.

Maybe they can just skip folders and go to tags, this being next gen and all. A game can be both PSVR and PS+, Sony.

 

[BoardBonobo]

Seems like Sony have something planned to answer gamepass. But they're not ready to talk about it yet. Would be cool if they made all previous generations of PS games, up to PS3, free on ps plus. And chuck in the Vita and PSP for good measure.

 

[BoardBonobo]

Maybe they can just skip folders and go to tags, this being next gen and all. A game can be both PSVR and PS+, Sony.

They should make a virtual drive, all game logic is stored in your online account and only the textures etc are stored locally. Bit like one drive for games but smarter.

 

[see colon]

They should make a virtual drive, all game logic is stored in your online account and only the textures etc are stored locally. Bit like one drive for games but smarter.

Current internet speeds for most users is going to easily match PS1 and 2 drive speeds, especially if you take into account seek times on optical drives. You could almost just run the games off a virtual drive over the internet, and maybe cache the files if they get used.

-edit-
I thought this was in reply to Sony's answer to gamepass. But still, if Sony is making an anser to gamepass, do this.

 

[BillSpencer]

They should make a virtual drive, all game logic is stored in your online account and only the textures etc are stored locally. Bit like one drive for games but smarter.

That would actually be amazing; games would need to reuse some textures, which should not be that big of a problem if the games are going for realistic art styles. But it could be pretty weird to see the same tree(bark) and vegetation or wall structures to name a few examples.

 

[BRiT]

So how few hours of sleep did everyone get? Only long enough to let the DualSense charge? I feel for anyone who has to work the day after getting a new console.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

This in particular I can only read as compatibility with code written only for PS4 being so problematic on Pro, that they have to pretend half the Pro's GPU doesn't even exist and clock it as close as possible. Clocks really shouldn't make a great difference unless you're using some quite poor practices with regard to timings. This suggested to me that PS4 and the dev systems and the code output were not ready for future hardware, nor that they were thinking about it seriously.

Well I took Cerny's discussion regarding the PS5 GPU and the PS4 and PS4 Pro as such.

The PS4 has 18 CU's
The PS4 Pro has 36 CU's

Cerny kept the PS5's GPU at 36 CU's so that it has backwards compatiblity with the PS4 Pro i.e. the PS4 Pro Mode and as I understood it, it can disable half of that and use the PS4 18 CU mode. This would ensure better backwards compatibility between the PS5 and the games designed for the PS4 and PS4 Pro.

 

[orangpelupa]

Seems like Sony have something planned to answer gamepass. But they're not ready to talk about it yet. Would be cool if they made all previous generations of PS games, up to PS3, free on ps plus. And chuck in the Vita and PSP for good measure.

seems mass media keeps forgetting PS Now also have game downloads, not just streaming.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So how few hours of sleep did everyone get? Only long enough to let the DualSense charge? I feel for anyone who has to work the day after getting a new console.

I had two hours sleep, but nothing to do with the PS5. I was about to go to sleep at 11pm when I got a call from work regarding a fire in one of out DC's. So I was awake till 5am then got to sleep for two hours before I got a call about a problem. I'm on standby. That's solved now but I have not slept since.

 

[Nesh]

Well I took Cerny's discussion regarding the PS5 GPU and the PS4 and PS4 Pro as such.

The PS4 has 18 CU's
The PS4 Pro has 36 CU's

Cerny kept the PS5's GPU at 36 CU's so that it has backwards compatiblity with the PS4 Pro i.e. the PS4 Pro Mode and as I understood it, it can disable half of that and use the PS4 18 CU mode. This would ensure better backwards compatibility between the PS5 and the games designed for the PS4 and PS4 Pro.

MS managed to achieve amazing BC though without having to think about the number of CU I suppose?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It is a different approach. Sony’s take allows developers to go all out on the hardware and then the next two iterations that are very close are guaranteed to work as advertised on the new hardware, by virtue of the new hardware being able to replicate the old hardware at a very low level. Generations beyond that will be powerful enough to abstract out the hardware of more than two iterations (or a full generation) and just simulate the differences.

To be able to attract the hardware you need a layer to do that, on Xbox that is virtualisation but there's no layer on PS4/Pro and we don't know about PS5 yet. The drawback with Sony's approach is that in terms of backwards compatibility Sony are now tied to relying on AMD to port previous generations GPU architecture logic forward for as long as they want to have compatibility.

For PS5, all this effort is on AMD so AMD had to spend what is probably a significant portion of their time developing PS5's GPU on ensuring PS4/Pro code ran flawlessly when they could have been spending that time making the GPU better in other ways.

For Xbox, AMD engineers were able to focus on new functionality and Microsoft's internal backward compatibility team deal with compatibility through their virtualisation abstraction.

Seems like Sony have something planned to answer gamepass. But they're not ready to talk about it yet. Would be cool if they made all previous generations of PS games, up to PS3, free on ps plus. And chuck in the Vita and PSP for good measure.

Maybe. I've ben so to many management meetings to discuss a solution to a major problem, only for the Chair to open with "so.. we're got to do something.". Good plan, bro. That's why you're paid the big bucks. But perhaps Sony do have a plan rather than an aspiration to have a plan.

 

[Karamazov]

is there a way to configure the sound output with a headset connected to the dualSense ?
I find there are to much bass in the sound, would be nice if they added something like an equalizer feature like winamp.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

MS managed to achieve amazing BC though without having to think about the number of CU I suppose?

Sony isn't MS. Cerny isn't part of the MS team.

Cerny's design philosophy is clearly different to MS's isn't it?

So what if MS decided to go with the increase in CU and it benefits them with BC.

Cerny's philosophy is clearly aimed at having PS4/PS4 Pro backwards compatibilty as he sees it. He designed all the SOC's for the consoles so he would know what he would want as a result. The results clearly seem to indicate that Cerny's design philosophy of the PS5 was correct for Sony's implementation of backwards compatibilty with over 99% backwards compatible success rate.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

is there a way to configure the sound output with a headset connected to the dualSense ?
I find there are to much bass in the sound, would be nice if they added something like an equalizer feature like winamp.

Isn't there an app? I seem to remember the old PS4 headset had an app that you installed onto the PS4 and could change settings. It was designed with the headset in mind as far as I remember.

 

[JPT]

Maybe Sonys plan going forward is that the latest gen, supports the former gen on the device and earlier gens are supported through PS Now or a similar service?
So when PS6 arrives, PS5 games will run on PS6 in BC and PS4 and older will be streamed through PS Now.

 

[JPT]

Isn't there an app? I seem to remember the old PS4 headset had an app that you installed onto the PS4 and could change settings. It was designed with the headset in mind as far as I remember.

yes, there was an app for PS4, but that app does not work with PS5