PGR4: No day/night cycles per city. This feature doesn't fit onto a DVD

Cyan

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I know PGR is all in the name of fun.., and the top notch graphics plus the gameplay, but this sounds weird. Oblivion does fit onto a DVD and it's huge!

I don't know where is the heavy workload for a racing game, maybe because the textures are so good and gorgeous? If that is so then, to an extent, that's good news. I don't know how much storage capacity is needed to store each track's geometry data, but afaik 100 MB should do. My logic flowchart goes - add to that the textures and we have, let's say, 500 MB data x 10 tracks, it totals 5 GBs. I know I am counting on my fingers here, but there's a lot of spare space for cars' models, audio and bikes. So, what's the problem?

I hope they release day or night version of every track as (hopefully free) downloadable content.

From PGR4 official forums:

You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city. For example, Macau is always in the daytime, but if you play it during a storm everything looks darker and more foreboding. If you play during a blizzard then things are slightly tinged blue and everything seems more frozen. Of course, playing this track in sunshine will make everything appear bright and yellowy.
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Ben

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Easy there mate, let me explain a little first!

In the past we've always had day and night and to do this we've had to create a duplicate set of textures for most of the buildings, obviously there is the space on the disc and the time it will take make all those night time textures. For some cities night time is important, as good as Vegas looks in the day everyone really wants to see it at night, so in PGR4 only night will be available, and if you thought Vegas and Tokyo looked good at night wait until you see what Shanghai looks like!

All the PGR3 cities have been re-lit and look better than ever, plus each weather type brings with it a different lighting setting, so Clear will be different to Fog which will be different to Rain...etc These weather types really do change the feel of the city just as much as a change from day to night, Macau in a storm is VERY different to Macau on a clear day and heavy fog changes it further! Cat and mouse around Macau Route 9 in heavy fog is fantastic by the way as is another multiplayer game mode yet to be announced! Good enough to have the art team eagerly waiting for 5.30 to come around so they can play it for an hour!

So at it’s base there is only one time of day, add to that the different weather settings and you get more variation to each of the cities than just Day and Night would give you. Trust me, they all look cool
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Alan
http://www.bizarrecreations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14802

Bizarre Creations are gods.
 
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Why do they need a second set of textures :?: For adding light sources? I don't know how they're doing their lighting, but is it not just a matter of turning off the world light (the sun) and then adding light sources where required?


Ben said:
it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD.

Alan said:
obviously there is the space on the disc

eeerrrrr.......... Does not compute. :???:
 
Why do they need a second set of textures :?: For adding light sources? I don't know how they're doing their lighting, but is it not just a matter of turning off the world light (the sun) and then adding light sources where required?

Dont think so, dont see how they could put a light sources in a lot of building windows to give that 'night view'. Therefore textures with lit up balcons and windows are best to use.
 
They would need a second set of lightmaps (baked lighting) and some textures would need unlit (baked lighting) variants for the night scene, but I can't see how this would require more than several extra megs per map (maybe in the tens/twenties of megs). And I certainly can't see why EVERY texture per map would need to be changed. That would be a first for games I've worked on or looked at in detail.

Perhaps they were just barely under the DVD limit, and could not afford the extra 12 megs per map (which granted is just my own estimate).
 
Thanks for the replies, mates.

I am sorry to spam this subject since this is already being discussed here;

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=43164

Please StefanS, Geo, Sonic, etc, lock this thread and I ask you all, plz, to take the discussion back to that thread. Thanks!

That thread's actually been locked because basically its intent was to shove DVD limitations in the face of XBox fans. So - right now yours is the one Cyan. As it's in the technology section, we'll expect posts to adhere to those standards.
 
They would need a second set of lightmaps (baked lighting) and some textures would need unlit (baked lighting) variants for the night scene, but I can't see how this would require more than several extra megs per map (maybe in the tens/twenties of megs). And I certainly can't see why EVERY texture per map would need to be changed. That would be a first for games I've worked on or looked at in detail.

Perhaps they were just barely under the DVD limit, and could not afford the extra 12 megs per map (which granted is just my own estimate).

I think GT3 did exactly this and it took up alot of space.
 
so do you still thinks Sony going with Blu-ray is a bad idea now (from a gamer's perspective)?

I mentioned in the other thread before is got locked...

The big disc (BluRay) is all good, but I'm wondering how big a deal it really is. Specifically when comparing the benefits of more storage next to things like advanced animation or AI.
 
I think GT3 did exactly this and it took up alot of space.

For that one environment that has both a day and night version? ;)

@Crayon: I think we'll start seeing the difference this year.

Of course, it will always possible to make great games within the limitations of the platform, otherwise the Wii wouldn't exist. ;) So it doesn't have to be a huge problem. The only possible way that will lead to this mattering significantly, is that first party games manage to make good use of the extra space and become more interesting than the first party games for the 360, with a possible effect that multi-platform games will have to step up in order to compete / keep up with 1st party games, and create games that make use of the extra space on the PS3 so that you may see a change in quality in favor of the PS3.

While I do think that 1st party games will start to show the benefit of BluRay this year already, for multi-platform titles I think it may take a while. Perhaps the PC will eventually help in that regard. Don't know.
 
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Its a shame really, but its not like anyone did'nt expect 360 developers to start running into space problems. Im just suprised that they have hit it this early, i was expecting to hear about storage problems on 3rd or 5th generation games. It would'nt hurt to have a 2 disc set-up like Gran Turismo 2 had, 1 disk for all the arcadey stuff + Online mode and another disk for the carrer mode.
 
I don't think there will be a lot of games pushing tons of huge and unique photorealistic textures.

I'm pretty sure that's the only problem.
 
I don't think there will be a lot of games pushing tons of huge and unique photorealistic textures.

I'm pretty sure that's the only problem.
I think that's the main reason, although it's hard to understand why they neeed such amount of storage space at first by (logic) numbers alone, perhaps is it all in the details. Lively towncenters, varied streetlamps, different buildings, signs, shops, small lamps and objects attached to the streets, traffic lights, etc.

The game doesn't only feature different cities, but it's also a fact that those cities are placed in different latitudes so you must take into account the influence of weather, culture and idiosyncracy. I hope they portray these peculiarities properly, even it this does mean they need to pack more and more resources to do so and they run into some (probably unexpected) difficulties like DVD limitations.

I'm pretty sure it's worth it and they've done their best to keep the spirit of the series alive; fun, gameplay and graphics, in that order.

Cheers
 
How much will Carmack's mega-textures drive up the demand for disc space?

I don't think you understand what Carmack's mega-textures is. Its not some super high resolution textures to be used instead of normal ones. Its one big texture for most of the world instead of using small induvidual ones.
 
so do you still thinks Sony going with Blu-ray is a bad idea now (from a gamer's perspective)?
To be honest, every day that goes by Sony's decision to add Blu-Ray makes more sence... but I don't think this is something that needs to be discussed (again) in this thread.


According to what I've read, is it true that the xbox360 was first designed to have 256 MB RAM instead if 512 MB?
If true, is it possible that this sudden change of specs created an unforseen bottleneck or were they confident that advanced texture compression techniques would catch up with storage requirements of next-gen games?
Maybe the 'Deferred Rendering' used in KZ2 could partially solve bizarre's problem by using advanced dynamic lighting instead of using a multitude of textures for day/night cycles.
 
For that one environment that has both a day and night version? ;)

Yep, i just checked up on it, (i remembered reading about a ripped version long time ago), i figured it was dual layer DVD ripped down to Single Layer, turns out it was SL DVD to CD. I guess i forgot that in the GT3 days DVD´s was still new and rare.

"They" ripped the "evening and night textures" to save space and downsampled the music, compromise i guess :) So not just night textures i guess, my bad.
 
To be honest, every day that goes by Sony's decision to add Blu-Ray makes more sence... but I don't think this is something that needs to be discussed (again) in this thread.


According to what I've read, is it true that the xbox360 was first designed to have 256 MB RAM instead if 512 MB?
If true, is it possible that this sudden change of specs created an unforseen bottleneck or were they confident that advanced texture compression techniques would catch up with storage requirements of next-gen games?
Maybe the 'Deferred Rendering' used in KZ2 could partially solve bizarre's problem by using advanced dynamic lighting instead of using a multitude of textures for day/night cycles.

It is true. Epic got them to increase it tho via pressure for Gears of War.
 
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