On a PC installation disc everything is packed to the max by InstallShield or whatever, while on a console game disc not.
PGR4: No day/night cycles per city. This feature doesn't fit onto a DVD
- Thread starter Cyan
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So budget and time constraints don't come into this at all and if they had HD-DVD, PGR4 would definitely have night time and day time for each environment?
Did I say they are ruled out? Also does every owner have a HD-DVD?
What I said is that his last comments don't rule out the original that the DVD size could be a limitation. And this is what the original suggested
But he doesnt say the reason was time and budget constraints either though.
Is this gonna be like the time when Team Ninja (with DOA4) and From Software (Enchant Arm) talked about DVD9 limitations and ended up with games that use plenty of cgi and take up at best 6GB of space?
While I'm sure procedural textures can be used in places general use in PGR might be difficult because most of the city textures are based on reference photos. Describing these photos algorithmically would be difficult or time consuming.
What I meant was that even if they had Bluray or HDDVD to work with, adding night and day for all 10 environments would not be free and easy. Or fit onto a DVD, apparently.
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Having a day and night (plus dusk and dawn) versions of each track is not really necessary, or even preferable.
Who would want to race something like the Michelin Test Track at night, or Nurburgring where the tracks would be boring at night lighting.
For the city tracks it would be nice to have a nighttime version of each one, but
a couple of standout neon lit tracks should satisfy the appetite.
Maybe more than a disc size limitation (which it obviously would have been had they included two or more versions of each track on the DVD), it was just a standard design tradeoff decision, what's worth putting in there and what's not, given the limited resources in time and staff and such.
Still, a dynamic day to night transition in tracks would be cool, but I guess that would need either some heavy universal lighting calculations or straming of textures from disc, both of which would probably be hard to do while maintaining a solid framerate (GTA4)
Who would want to race something like the Michelin Test Track at night, or Nurburgring where the tracks would be boring at night lighting.
For the city tracks it would be nice to have a nighttime version of each one, but
a couple of standout neon lit tracks should satisfy the appetite.
Maybe more than a disc size limitation (which it obviously would have been had they included two or more versions of each track on the DVD), it was just a standard design tradeoff decision, what's worth putting in there and what's not, given the limited resources in time and staff and such.
Still, a dynamic day to night transition in tracks would be cool, but I guess that would need either some heavy universal lighting calculations or straming of textures from disc, both of which would probably be hard to do while maintaining a solid framerate (GTA4)
To be fair, the later comment could be more about appeasing MS or dealing with negative PR than putting things straight. The original comment was very clear :
That's not mixing up fitting data on a disc with not designing it into the game.
It's not a big deal, because you don't need night and day versions of every track as rabidrabbit rightly explains. The problem is with such a comment, some people take it as bad news doom and gloom and think PGR4 is lacking, where's it's 'lacking' a feature that was never in in the first place! Kinda like the KZ2 engine, where some are thinking lots of features were dropped because they're not in the deferred rendering engine - whereas those features were never in in the beginning. You could hust as readily say FFXIII is lacking content because BRD isn't large enough. If the devs wanted to spend that much time and money creating content, eventually they'd exceed BRD's capacity. But it's not something they'd ever do and it'd be stupid to say FFXIII has less because of disc capacity. If XB360 had a larger disc, it's questionable how much more content PGR4 would have. Would it have night and day versions of every track? I doubt it. It'd be a design folly.
So, PGR4 by design doesn't warrant night and day of every track. The designers didn't aim for that; they're smart and aimed for the resources they have available! *If* they were to do night and day for every track, DVD could be an issue which is why the guy said as much, but it's not a flag-waver of a point except for fanatics.
tbh, I think this is a developer issue rather than a DVD size issue. either
They use a unfied lighting + procedurale textures and have night and day cycle.
- wont look anywhere near as photoreal and will be more computationally expensive.
or
Build two sets of textures for each city and do blends between texture sets
- Will take much more dev time making two sets of textures and will still be more computationally expensive (texture blending)
Both are bigger issues than DVD size, and I dont think its much more complex than that as a discusion.
end ex.
They use a unfied lighting + procedurale textures and have night and day cycle.
- wont look anywhere near as photoreal and will be more computationally expensive.
or
Build two sets of textures for each city and do blends between texture sets
- Will take much more dev time making two sets of textures and will still be more computationally expensive (texture blending)
Both are bigger issues than DVD size, and I dont think its much more complex than that as a discusion.
end ex.
I think the trade off was worth it... many games if they have a transition at all have just day and night. Or most games just have snow level, a jungle level, a forest level, a desert/canyon level, a highway asphalt level and a city level with variations on seaside or countryside. With no impact on the track perse other than visibility to some degree.
WIth PGR 4 you get 5 distinct variations per track with lighting moods. With the impact of weather on lighting you have really several more variations per track which actually impact your ability to drive them...
We'll have to see how it plays but its an interesting technique and welcome twist on the racing genre.
WIth PGR 4 you get 5 distinct variations per track with lighting moods. With the impact of weather on lighting you have really several more variations per track which actually impact your ability to drive them...
We'll have to see how it plays but its an interesting technique and welcome twist on the racing genre.
Dont call it per track. Bizarre creates an "entire" city in 3d, with PGR3 you could pull out your map editor, and make endless amounts of track within any of the cities.
Unlikely, but very likely they would have more tracks with day and night enviroment.
It´s a compromise nothing more nothing less.
So is it possible that we can all agree?
The game, in it's current form, could not be on DVD if it included both day and night variations of the same track.
Is it also possible that we all agree, they have found a way around that limitation by offering great, and stunning, weather effects and different conditions which, IMO, are significantly better than a plain day and night change?
The game, in it's current form, could not be on DVD if it included both day and night variations of the same track.
Is it also possible that we all agree, they have found a way around that limitation by offering great, and stunning, weather effects and different conditions which, IMO, are significantly better than a plain day and night change?
MonkeyLicker
Newcomer
Sony's decision to add Bluray had nothing to do with games.
If the 360 had hd-dvd instead of dvd it would have been doa.
Blu-ray is one of the main reasons PS3 is in the shitter right now. I have a hard time believing it was a good decision.
They gave a way tons of market-share and made the 360 the target platform.
It might be cool from a technical prospective, but it did far more harm than good.
There are some nice Threads (maybe even some that arent locked yet
) where we can go a few 1000 rounds on the BR drive. This thread isn´t one of them.It´s a thread about how the DVD in the 360 put a limit on how many tracks that could have both night and day enviroments.
MonkeyLicker
Newcomer
There are some nice Threads (maybe even some that arent locked yet
It´s a thread about how the DVD in the 360 put a limit on how many tracks that could have both night and day enviroments.
I can respect that and I apologize for the derail. I just get tired of seeing people make comments like that only to follow it up by saying "But this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, so don't comment on my statement".
Either way, you know I'm right about Blue-ray.
I'm not sure how you are interpreting the press release that you linked, but it does seem they came up with a new system to compensate for duplicating the textures and hence storage issues. Is that not what this thread is about?
So was Ben (is he a dev?) wrong or did he just let the truth slip out and ignite a Internet firestorm?
Actually, including Blu-ray in the PS3 was a very smart idea, it gives developers a lot more space and freedom to work with. Plus, it also help pushing the Blu-ray format.
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