open letter to ATi on gamers-depot

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by chavvdarrr, Dec 17, 2004.

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  1. Dave Baumann

    Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh...
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    12 pipelines draw less power than 16. When we apply your “random logic, anecdotal evidenceâ€￾ to this, it indicates that the ASIC’s are capable of going beyond 520MHz.

    No, these aren’t’ related at all.
     
  2. Razor1

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    No they worked just fine up till you tried to go to the xt pe levels and beyond then they started artifacting because the other pipelines weren't able to go that high. Not that there wasn't enough power to them. Not enough power should cause a crash or a system lock up not artifacting. That means the pipelines have enough power but were not stable.

    On off consist of at least 2 transistors or a gate that consists of a single FET that uses its capacitor to store the value for a short time. if there is too much voltage or too little voltage it might cause timing issues. And this would cause a hard crash not artifacting. This is for dram of course but it should be similiar to any type of silicon chip.

    But there are more then enough x800 pro's out there to begin with the demand was being met.
     
  3. Fodder

    Fodder Stealth Nerd
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    Yes, it was being met, with fully functional cores.
     
  4. Razor1

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    ah I see what your getting thats a good way of making a loss into a profit.
     
  5. Dave Baumann

    Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh...
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    Please show us your reasearch that bears this out. Also show us you extensive reasearch on the exact issues displayed for each and every modded PRO board.

    Not all PE issues are related to the core as well, and some of the yield can be put down to board level issues, which is why they have changes supplier for R430 and R480 boards - timing issues can be caused by board issues as well.

    Anyway, yes, of course there were many R420 chips that couldn't reach PE speeds, but that doesn't bear any relation to R430. All of this is more unrelated issues since we are talking about different chips on different processes on different boards - just because an R420 chip couldn't hit 520 when it can 500 doesn't mean that R430 won't go to 400MHz OK, especially given that this is the only clockspeed nin they are selling them at.
     
  6. Razor1

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    Well I was searching around the web this is what I found on this forum

    http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15811&view=previous

    Exactly what I stated, Guden Oden seems have already tried lower clocks on a 9800 pro and by under clocking indeed did causes a hard crash and we all know that over clocked will cause a crash or artifacting.

    http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?s=1aae8992176fff97dfaf7a451251a158&p=825660#post825660

    x800 pro to xt pe flash hard crash, temperatures don't go above 80 C so its not a temperature issue. The unlocked pipes are bad are they really bad? or the clocks that are affected the pipelines? Its the voltage as this later quote from this guys experiment shows.

    Flashed back to pro unlocked pipes lower voltage unlocked pipes worked fine.

    Why is this happening voltage is affecting the pipeline performance causing a hard crash with the xt pe bios

    http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?p=426003

    Samething here.

    http://www.hardcoreware.net/forum/showthread.php?p=311162#post311162

    This guys stating that sapphire x800 pro vivos artifact more then the other brands.

    http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=33783530

    another artifacting after sometime.

    There are a few of these out there.


    Oh I didn't know they changed suppliers thats interesting ok thats good.
     
  7. Dave Baumann

    Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh...
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    As I thought. A limited number of forum posts is not any kind of sample to build and understand any kind of yeild and issue analysis. Some of these even go to contradict some of your earlier points.
     
  8. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    And mine works just perfectly with 16 pipes enabled at XT PE speeds, what does that tell us? :roll:
     
  9. jvd

    jvd
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    my x800xt pe works just fine at 650/600 whats that tell us ?!?
     
  10. BRiT

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    You two have too much disposable income... :wink:
     
  11. Tim Murray

    Tim Murray the Windom Earle of mobile SOCs
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    waitaminute... you mean anecdotal evidence from an anonymous forum can't be used as the basis for statistical analysis? fuck! *throw current progress on thesis in the trash*
     
  12. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Don't be too hasty, it's just CMU....not like it's a real school or anything Baron. ;)
     
  13. Razor1

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    This is why I wanted to see your reasoning behind this next quote why is this happening? Its not a power issue. This is from a guy on Rage 3d btw. I know there were 3 or 4 people on Hardocp that got the samething, but at the moment can't find the thread, still looking for it.

    If you read through the threads, you will see this has happend to more then one person. And the volt mod was never neccesary that xt pe bios included the increased volts. Also there were many people that were having artifacts in those threads too.

    Way to be a gentleman Dave, another person and me stated the problems with using extra power or lower power for that matter would cause a hard crash, which you plesantly said was false, thank you for your confirmation.

    limited number yes but will all these people be making this up? Am I just saying that its going to happen to every single ATi card, no but in all likely hood with ATi's track record possibly might happen with the x800xl now you've stated that the timing issues were also caused by the board and ATi has switched manufacturers, I didn't know that which I reciprocated was a good change.

    Do you want more links I can give you more links

    http://www.rage3d.org/board/showthread.php?t=33766704&page=8&pp=30

    http://www.driverheaven.net/printthread.php?t=55180

    http://forums.techpowerup.com/archive/index.php/t-630.html

    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46664

    And as I said I can find more if you want.....

    But how many overclocking forums are there? not a whole lot so you aren't going to get a huge number of threads.
     
  14. Tim Murray

    Tim Murray the Windom Earle of mobile SOCs
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    heh, I'm getting the hell out of engineering anyway.
     
  15. Razor1

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    If you want to buy 30 vivo cards and test it out be my guest, because I don't :D but I'm going on what others have been saying. I don't see why even if its only 10 people that did these types of benches why the others wouldn't get the same results. Since you have a modded x800 give it a try flash it back, see what happens. JVD you might want to try this too. Since you have a great overclocking card. See what the max clocks for a x800 pro vivo are well don't need to go max but see if it goes past what the modded xt pe levels you have right now. Forgot to add in there make sure your voltage doesn't exceed the x800 pro levels too.
     
  16. Dave Baumann

    Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh...
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    And all of this is very limited information about another chip based on another process - in reality it bears little relation. If you really want to look at 130nm low-k vs 110nm then look at the minimum clockspeeds for the parts and see how they differ - there is a 20% difference between the minimum clocks on the 16 pipe versions, greater than the gains cited for low-k, that increases when you look at R480, which has some layout tweaks for further speed optimisation (and which do you think R430 is going to follow?).

    Basically, we'll have to wait and see, but when you look at the indicitors that pertain specifically to R430, what do they suggest already?
     
  17. Razor1

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    Well after this discussion I'm with you :) will have to wait and see but it should be just fine, I wasn't aware the baords were also the problem.
     
  18. Albuquerque

    Albuquerque Red-headed step child
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    I'm going to chime in here...

    No ATI bioses on ANY of the Radeon line has any relation or affect to any of the regulated voltages on the card. This includes (but is not limited to) GPU, VDD, VREF and VDDQ voltage lines.

    THE ONLY WAY TO MANIPULATE GPU, VDD, VDDQ OR VREF VOLTAGES ON A RADEON CARD IS TO PHYSICALLY ALTER THE CARD IN SOME FORM. Bios alterations do not change the voltage, nor does AGP bus voltage from your computer's bios.

    Just thought I'd clear that up. The X800XTPE's run 1.4v GPU; my X800Pro Vivo was running 1.3v when it came to me. With a little pencil graphite and some squinting, I was able to bump my core voltage to 1.4v and was able to attain a "stock" speed of 520/560. Not much more granted, but certainly enough to be a real XTPE when it was running the real voltage.
     
  19. Razor1

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    Right, it wasn't the bios flash that increased the volts some of the x800 pro vivos came with 1.4 volts.

    http://hardforum.com/printthread.php?t=803583
     
  20. Albuquerque

    Albuquerque Red-headed step child
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    Why did you just regugitate what I just said? Or are you being sarcastic? :?:
     
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