open letter to ATi on gamers-depot

[Razor1]

This is a possibility, but having 8 more pipelines then the x700's would cause more heat, and drop the clocks down a bit thats what is hurting ATi's yeild, ability to push its core to the desired clocks. Just have to wait and see if thats going to effect the x800xl.

Also its targeted at the 6800 nu market not the 6600gt. 6800nu's are going for 250ish, and the 6800 gts are going for 350ish if the x800xl does show up as an AGP or if you can find a 6800nu pci-e for 300 dollars, so its right in the middle and will take a good deal of the low high end range and mid high end range of nV if they can get it out in good quantities before nV starts dropping prices or introduces another part (both highly unlikely).

Is this going to be an OEM product, or retail, or both? I was in the impression its more for retail and not so much for OEM.

Also the reference cards that were reviewed weren't great overclockers either so I have a doubt it will have similiar yeild issues as the x700xt.

How do you come up with all that ? Do you have links? Ati needs AGP chips for mid range retail. The pressure for the bridge is building. The R3xx core is running down (down to low end by fall). so id imagine a AGP/bridge ASIC. real soon.IMO

Links for the overclocks? Firingsquad and Hardocp both didn't got around a 30 mhz's overclock. The x800xt pe and x850xt pe got more then that if I remember correctly, both had close to a 90 mhz overclock

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzAwLDEw

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_radeon_x800_xl/page15.asp

I would think this card was for retail more since they are targeting the 6800gt and 6800nu segement, which neither of them have no major pci-e OEM amounts.

True, I think ATi made a mistake thinking that pci-e would be adopted faster and overtake the agp market. But system builders business right now is a bit sluggish. Hopefully thier bridge chip will be ready soon.

 

[digitalwanderer]

True, I think ATi made a mistake thinking that pci-e would be adopted faster and overtake the agp market.

I dunno, they seem to be doing alright in the OEM market and I think that's what they were aiming for.

Me and you may not be buying a PCI-e anytime soon, but Joe Consumer is gonna want it on his next new PC.

 

[Razor1]

True, I think ATi made a mistake thinking that pci-e would be adopted faster and overtake the agp market.

I dunno, they seem to be doing alright in the OEM market and I think that's what they were aiming for.

Me and you may not be buying a PCI-e anytime soon, but Joe Consumer is gonna want it on his next new PC.

they are doing well but a 300 buck or above card for OEM's isn't even worth it, most OEM systems that are sold probably come with integrated graphics or low end cards. The conference call with the CEO of nV they talked about that, and the startagy that nV will take to take back some of the integrated chip set market. ATi must have a similiar staragy as well, and thier x300's and x600's are doing well, but something has to give because the 6200's aren't slackers, and they will take a good chuck of the OEM side just like the 5200's.

So your left with can't produce high end cards for OEM's not a too bad, can't produce high end retail cards bad.

 

[jvd]

the are able to make high end cards for the add in market.

I've already posted links to the x800xt pe in stock , x800xt in stock and x800pro in stock , the xt and xt pe in pci-e flavors as well (don't remember if i did for the x800pro pci-e)

SO its really just a problem for the 200range as u can even get a x800se at 300$

Even at the 200range u have the 9800pro which is better than the 6600gt in high aniso and fsaa instances and u have the 150$ x700pro . Soon u will have new cards to replace them.

 

[Razor1]

Its been spotty at best in stock every now and then, the x800 pro is very easy to find and I think your right there is no pci-e version of the pro, but the 6800 gt is a better buy. I can't go to my local Circuit City and pick up a x800xt or pe, but the 6800gt and x800 pro are here and every now and then the 6800 Ultra is avialable too.

x800xt seems to be very easy to find on the net, a bit over priced though 500 and up for the most part, the xt pe wow way over priced every now and then find a good deal for 500 bucks.

Still no x700's pretty much a retail only cards.

Well anyways, personally I think ATi made a mistake they should have targeted thier high end products for AGP retial and not purely for OEM's and pci-e.

Marry christmas everyone!

 

[karlotta]

This is a possibility, but having 8 more pipelines then the x700's would cause more heat, and drop the clocks down a bit thats what is hurting ATi's yeild, ability to push its core to the desired clocks. Just have to wait and see if thats going to effect the x800xl.

This, how do you come up with this?

... before nV starts dropping prices or introduces another part (both highly unlikely).

And this. NVDA's chips cost more, they will not be lowering anytime soon. ATI will lower before they do.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Also the reference cards that were reviewed weren't great overclockers either so I have a doubt it will have similiar yeild issues as the x700xt.

Sorry, but theres some misconceptions here - overclocking is not an indication of yield and nor is the situation with X700 XT. With RV410 the ASIC's that don’t hit 475Mhz can be dropped into the PRO SKU and the ones that don’t hit 430 can be dropped into the standard SKU; the minimum speed is where you project the vast majority of ASICs to at least hit in order to sell them. R430 only has one speed, 400Mhz, and this means they project virtually all the ASICs to hit that speed - the price drop at the start also indicates the the yields are bearing this out.

 

[Razor1]

This is a possibility, but having 8 more pipelines then the x700's would cause more heat, and drop the clocks down a bit thats what is hurting ATi's yeild, ability to push its core to the desired clocks. Just have to wait and see if thats going to effect the x800xl.

This, how do you come up with this?

... before nV starts dropping prices or introduces another part (both highly unlikely).

And this. NVDA's chips cost more, they will not be lowering anytime soon. ATI will lower before they do.

thats why I said thats highly improbable. But it depends on if nV drops to .11 microns for the 6800's and they already did that for the nV 41 the new 6800 nu.

the clocks of course you have more transitors for the extra pipelines, more heat more chance of instibility in the new transitors since there is more of them with higher clocks.

The only reason the x800xt pe and x850 xt pe are clocked as high as they are is because of the low-k. It gives a 30% increase in effiencency of the transitors. Take that away what are you left with? 400 Mhz right?

400mhz *30% =133mhz

133 mhz + 400 mhz = 533mhz

very close to what the xt pe's have.

From what I've been reading and from what others have said here going from .13 to .11 really doesn't help clock speeds its just mainly for cost reasons. So your clocks are still going to max out around that 400 mhz mark with a 16 pipeline version of these cores and thats what the overclocking of the x800xl showed maxing out at around 430 mhz.

 

[jvd]

Its been spotty at best in stock every now and then, the x800 pro is very easy to find and I think your right there is no pci-e version of the pro, but the 6800 gt is a better buy. I can't go to my local Circuit City and pick up a x800xt or pe, but the 6800gt and x800 pro are here and every now and then the 6800 Ultra is avialable too.

dunno about circuit city but since october i could walk into bestbuy and buy x800xt pes . even before that i could get pros .

Yes the 6800gt is a better buy than the x800pro , but the x800xt pe is a better buy than the 6800ultra extreme which is even rarer . The x800xt is a slightly better buy than the 6800ultra

regardless before that u said ati had no high end addin cards to sell. That is clearly wrong , the fastest single card avalible for purchase is an ati card .

x800xt seems to be very easy to find on the net, a bit over priced though 500 and up for the most part, the xt pe wow way over priced every now and then find a good deal for 500 bucks.

You can get a x800xt pe for 550$ in most places. considering its the fastest card out right now that is a good deal for 50$ more than the xt or 6800ultra .

the x800xt easly holds its own against the ultra and is just as commen as the ultra in stores on the web and local chains like bestbuy and compusa .

Still no x700's pretty much a retail only cards.

I can't get one at best buy yet . but then again i can't get a 6600 card at best buy either. I can get both online though.

Only part i can't get is the x700xt which is now canceled.

Well anyways, personally I think ATi made a mistake they should have targeted thier high end products for AGP retial and not purely for OEM's and pci-e.

the x800xt pe which is the fastest card avalible for purchase is agp retail and it is from ati .

I don't understand what your trying to say .

The x800xt is as good a deal as the 6800ultra and is easily as avalible /

the x800pro is a slightly slower card than the 6800gt but is not a total loss at that price point and is an agp add in card and is just as avalible .

They have the high end covered. Its the mid end that is a bit lacking the x700xt is now mia , the x800se is very hard to find .

Though this will soon be fixed

 

[Razor1]

Also the reference cards that were reviewed weren't great overclockers either so I have a doubt it will have similiar yeild issues as the x700xt.

Sorry, but theres some misconceptions here - overclocking is not an indication of yield and nor is the situation with X700 XT. With RV410 the ASIC's that don’t hit 475Mhz can be dropped into the PRO SKU and the ones that don’t hit 430 can be dropped into the standard SKU; the minimum speed is where you project the vast majority of ASICs to at least hit in order to sell them. R430 only has one speed, 400Mhz, and this means they project virtually all the ASICs to hit that speed - the price drop at the start also indicates the the yields are bearing this out.

How about the regular x800? They do have a back up card for the x800 xl just incase there are issues with the yields.

 

[Razor1]

Its been spotty at best in stock every now and then, the x800 pro is very easy to find and I think your right there is no pci-e version of the pro, but the 6800 gt is a better buy. I can't go to my local Circuit City and pick up a x800xt or pe, but the 6800gt and x800 pro are here and every now and then the 6800 Ultra is avialable too.

dunno about circuit city but since october i could walk into bestbuy and buy x800xt pes . even before that i could get pros .

Yes the 6800gt is a better buy than the x800pro , but the x800xt pe is a better buy than the 6800ultra extreme which is even rarer . The x800xt is a slightly better buy than the 6800ultra

regardless before that u said ati had no high end addin cards to sell. That is clearly wrong , the fastest single card avalible for purchase is an ati card .

x800xt seems to be very easy to find on the net, a bit over priced though 500 and up for the most part, the xt pe wow way over priced every now and then find a good deal for 500 bucks.

You can get a x800xt pe for 550$ in most places. considering its the fastest card out right now that is a good deal for 50$ more than the xt or 6800ultra .

the x800xt easly holds its own against the ultra and is just as commen as the ultra in stores on the web and local chains like bestbuy and compusa .

Still no x700's pretty much a retail only cards.

I can't get one at best buy yet . but then again i can't get a 6600 card at best buy either. I can get both online though.

Only part i can't get is the x700xt which is now canceled.

Well anyways, personally I think ATi made a mistake they should have targeted thier high end products for AGP retial and not purely for OEM's and pci-e.

the x800xt pe which is the fastest card avalible for purchase is agp retail and it is from ati .

I don't understand what your trying to say .

The x800xt is as good a deal as the 6800ultra and is easily as avalible /

the x800pro is a slightly slower card than the 6800gt but is not a total loss at that price point and is an agp add in card and is just as avalible .

They have the high end covered. Its the mid end that is a bit lacking the x700xt is now mia , the x800se is very hard to find .

Though this will soon be fixed

Well I'm not saying they don't at all, they are harder to find, but I guess it also depends on which stores we go to.

 

[Dave Baumann]

How about the regular x800? They do have a back up card for the x800 xl just incase there are issues with the yields.

I was including X800 as both X800 XL and X800 run at 400Mhz, they only differ in number of pipelines active, not clockspeeds.

 

[Razor1]

How about the regular x800? They do have a back up card for the x800 xl just incase there are issues with the yields.

I was including X800 as both X800 XL and X800 run at 400Mhz, they only differ in number of pipelines active, not clockspeeds.

hmm well that means they are afraid that all 16 pipelines will not be functional

anyways here is a quote from firing squad this is the same doubt I have

Before we go further, it’s important to note that 0.11-micron is TSMC’s value/mainstream manufacturing process, it doesn’t provide performance-enhancing extras such as low-k dielectric. As a result, both of ATI’s R430 cards, the RADEON X800 and RADEON X800 XL are clocked at 400MHz. This pales in comparison to the 500MHz+ clocks of ATI’s high-end 0.13-micron parts, but remember, ATI’s X700 XT, which was also produced on TSMC’s 0.11-micron process, was apparently never able to yield well at the 475MHz clock frequency ATI was shooting for -- and it was only an 8 pipeline part.

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_radeon_x800_xl/page2.asp

If it was low-k that caused the yeild issues in the past for the x800 xt pe, going to .11 will help availability but that wasn't the case the x700xt showed that. Just have to hope at 400 mhz that it will not be too high for a 16 pipeline card, as I said earlier without low k the max clocks on these cores are around 400 mhz and thats very similiar to nvidia's cards too for 16 pipeline versions.

 

[Dave Baumann]

hmm well that means they are afraid that all 16 pipelines will not be functional

That’s a given, as this is why they have reached these configurations - some will end up operable with 16 and some won't.

If it was low-k that caused the yeild issues in the past for the x800 xt pe

The section you quoted didn't indicate Low-k gave yield issues, it indicated the speeds wouldn't even get to that without low-k.

going to .11 will help availability but that wasn't the case the x700xt showed that.

And as I've already demonstrated looking at X700 XT alone doesn't tell you anything here since its a single high end SKU with a much higher clockspeed than the other SKUs on that ASIC, effectively just the cream of the crop.

 

[Razor1]

hmm well that means they are afraid that all 16 pipelines will not be functional

That’s a given, as this is why they have reached these configurations - some will end up operable with 16 and some won't.

If it was low-k that caused the yeild issues in the past for the x800 xt pe

The section you quoted didn't indicate Low-k gave yield issues, it indicated the speeds wouldn't even get to that without low-k.

going to .11 will help availability but that wasn't the case the x700xt showed that.

and as I've already demonstrated looking at X700 XT alone doesn't tell you anything here since its a single high end SKU with a much higher clockspeed than the other SKUs on that ASIC, effectively just the cream of the crop.

I understand what you are saying what happened with the x800 xt pe though? Why did it have yeild issues, was it the process or was making the part at such a high clock causing the problems.

Most likely the clocks were too high thats why so many vivo pro's were unlockable. The orginal pros were the same core but alot of people were able to clock them way higher then the x800xt pe core levels but were unlockable.

There was no "less" clocked part for the x800 xt pe orginally either in AGP it was introduced later, made a seperate x800xt for pci-e only. But when they found out that the x800xt pe yields were too low at 520 mhz they made an x800xt at 500 mhz for AGP too once they figured out they could make an extra 100 bucks from intead of selling them as pro vivos.

We are looking at 2 "different" cores on 2 different processes. The only two possibilities are either the manufactuing process or the clocks caused the yield issues. What I'm saying is if it was the manufactuing process ATi will not have issues with the x800xl. If its the clocks well even changing to a 400 mhz on .11 will not help them because without low k a 16 pipeline part max clocks will be around 400 mhz. Now yes its a bit of a stretch to just automatically say this is the max clocks for a 16 pipeline part for .11 or .13 with no low-k but even nV's 16 pipe cards seem to have that same barrier. And the math adds up as low-k gives about a 30% incease in efficiency.

Now ATi has said pci-e only for these parts, why? then they don't need to worry about avialability for high end parts in the retail channel until the kinks for the manufacturing processes are worked out on the new parts.

 

[Dave Baumann]

There was no "less" clocked part for the x800 xt pe orginally either in AGP it was introduced later, made a seperate x800xt for pci-e only.

Yes there was, you just said it and even inted out why so many unlockable PRO's existed; clearly the major yield issue was clocks and initially the only lower clocked SKU they had was the PRO so they dropped boards that wouldn't reach 520 into this SKU.

If its the clocks well even changing to a 400 mhz on .11 will not help them because without low k a 16 pipeline part max clocks will be around 400 mhz.

Good grief, where are you pulling this stuff from? I guess you must have done an extensive yield analysis for ATI?

You are putting random things togther and making assumptions. The things you a looking at can't really be compared in any meaningful way.

At this juncture the only indicators to yields are the fact that the baseline clock of 400Mhz is the same for both SKU's and the price was dropped on both SKU's.

 

[Razor1]

There was no "less" clocked part for the x800 xt pe orginally either in AGP it was introduced later, made a seperate x800xt for pci-e only.

Yes there was, you just said it and even inted out why so many unlockable PRO's existed; clearly the major yield issue was clocks and initially the only lower clocked SKU they had was the PRO so they dropped boards that wouldn't reach 520 into this SKU.

If its the clocks well even changing to a 400 mhz on .11 will not help them because without low k a 16 pipeline part max clocks will be around 400 mhz.

Good grief, where are you pulling this stuff from? I guess you must have done an extensive yield analysis for ATI?

You are putting random things togther and making assumptions. The things you a looking at can't really be compared in any meaningful way.

At this juncture the only indicators to yields are the fact that the baseline clock of 400Mhz is the same for both SKU's and the price was dropped on both SKU's.

You can look at it that way yes and I stated that its a far stretch but I'm pretty sure those clocks are pretty much the max on a .11 part with 16 pipelines too many indicators of that.

gotta ask why were the x800 pro vivo cores with 12 pipelines clockable higher then the x800xt pe but unlocked weren't able to go past the x800xt levels? The unlocked pipelines worked just fine at the x800 pro core clocks though. Core speeds have to do alot with the pipeline numbers because of.......

This is also the reason why ATi can produce a x800 regular at the same core clocks as the x800xl

This is the same reasoning behind the x700xt and why a x800 xl will have a max clock speed of around 400.

Anyways its a hypothesis just have to wait to see what happens

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

gotta ask why were the x800 pro vivo cores with 12 pipelines clockable higher then the x800xt pe but unlocked weren't able to go past the x800xt levels? The unlocked pipelines worked just fine at the x800 pro core clocks though. Core speeds have to do alot with the pipeline numbers because of.......

Mostly because the Pros boards were designed to supply less power. They could overclock highly at 12 pipes, or overclock less at 16 pipes because the latter used more power running that extra quad. People who did a small hardware mod on their Pro boards to increase voltage found they could get overclocks with 16 pipes back up to the previous overclocks on the 12 pipe version. The issues wasn't the chips, it was the voltage supplied from the Pro boards.

 

[Razor1]

gotta ask why were the x800 pro vivo cores with 12 pipelines clockable higher then the x800xt pe but unlocked weren't able to go past the x800xt levels? The unlocked pipelines worked just fine at the x800 pro core clocks though. Core speeds have to do alot with the pipeline numbers because of.......

Mostly because the Pros boards were designed to supply less power. They could overclock highly at 12 pipes, or overclock less at 16 pipes because the latter used more power running that extra quad. People who did a small hardware mod on their Pro boards to increase voltage found they could get overclocks with 16 pipes back up to the previous overclocks on the 12 pipe version. The issues wasn't the chips, it was the voltage supplied from the Pro boards.

Thats interesting, but then why sell them as pros where you could get an extra 150 bucks or so? Would this cause artifacts or just a crash? I specifically remember people saying articfact. I'm just wondering this is for argument purposes

 

[Fodder]

Thats interesting, but then why sell them as pros where you could get an extra 150 bucks or so?

Supply and demand, there is/was a bigger market for Pros than there were faulty R420 cores. Same deal with NVIDIA, consumers want the 6800NU, but NV40 yields are improving so they bring out NV41 to satisfy that bracket.