open letter to ATi on gamers-depot

[Bjorn]

More interesting or faster ?

THe dual gpus on one card is much more interesting becuase it solves many of the cons of sli .

No special mobo just any old pci-e slot
No extra power supply required
No loss of expansion slots .

Sure, it solves those problems but then it's a big problem just by itself. It won't (very likely) be faster then a single 6800 Ultra under a lot of circumstances. Especially not when you need it the most, high res, fsaa. And then it won't buy you anything for a whole lot of games that aren't SLI compatible (or SLI enabled in the drivers). So why not just buy a single 6800 Ultra instead ?

There are imo only two reasons to go with SLI, either to have the possibility to buy one 6600 GT now and one later on or the buy two 6800 GT's/Ultra's just for the sole reason to have the best gaming machine money can buy. The dual 6600 GT will probably no be cheap and it won't be the fastest card either.

 

[jvd]

I don't think adding in a second card is all that interesting . Of course the 6800ultra is be the fastest. Its also 1 grand in an sli set up (not adding in anything esle

Its not very interesting when u consider in less than a year you can have an r520 (dunno what nvidia is doing if the nv50 is indeed canceled) that can be almost as fast as the sli nv50 if not faster in a single set up .


Though i must say the two 6600gts on one card is only interesting because it solves problems. I would be more interested in buying a dual 6800nu card . That could be price at 500-600$ and would offer better than 6800ultra speeds

 

[Bjorn]

Its not very interesting when u consider in less than a year you can have an r520 (dunno what nvidia is doing if the nv50 is indeed canceled) that can be almost as fast as the sli nv50 if not faster in a single set up .

That remains to be seen though. The R9800 is hardly two times faster then the 9700 f.e. And the people that buy's two 6800 Ultras are probably the same people that will buy two NV5x's when they come out so i don't think they will care that much.

 

[GrapeApe]

I think this was a missed opportunity to have a balanced "Open Letter to the Industry" as a whole. Focusing on just one player when more than one is guilty of such offences simply weakens your points because you come off looking biased and lose any credibility you have, especially with trite BS like the flip-flop stuff. It plays to the audience that already agrees with you, but doesn't come anywhere near achieving the stated goals of a positive response.

From XGI's equally rare cards, to the lack of Matrox's PS2.0/DX9-level cards by 2004 as promised, to the list of nV's transgretions listed previously (my favourite will be if they ever decide to adopt Low-Kd [to compete with a 90nm low-k R5xx] after all their previous 'dangerous' talk). Everyone's done something worthy of a wake-up call, but when you focus on just one industry player it just loks fishy, because even the various camps know well enough that no one's clean.

 

[GrapeApe]

how exactly is it a problem though? or who exactly is this a problem for?

The potential customers that perhaps start waiting for the X700 XT to arrive after they've seen the reviews ?

You're trying to tell us that someone who was going to plonk down the same amount of coin for an X700XT isn't going to be happy that they were saved from the inevitable buyer's remorse of knowing that just 2 months later they could've bought better card for just as much if not less (retailers jacking up prices). If they were waiting for the X700XT for it price/performancs over the GF6600GT/GF6800(Vanilla/LE), they aren't about to be let down by having the X800 within about the same timeframe, especially with all the delays of the new PCIe mobos. I would think the people most PO'ed would be those who rushed to get the GF6600GT, and now see a more attractive item for the same price.

People aren't buying the X700XT/GF6600GT because they think the numbering system is cool (well maybe there's a nut or two out there), they're trying to get bang for their buck, and the X800 coming in at the same price gives them even more IMO. It's akin to releasing the FX5900XT, nV should've abandoned all hope/thoughts/wasted efforts on the FX5700U-GDDR3 as it had no place in the market with the FX5900XT out there for the same price or less. This is essentially the same thing except for avoiding making that card that won't sell well enough.

I personally wasn't considering the X700XT because it didn't offer much with it's 128 bit memory for the price. I was going to buy a vanilla GF6600 to fill my PCIe slot until something better came along. Now I don't have to bother waiting, simply buy the X800 or X800XL depending on local prices an wait for the next 'wise choice' be it an R5xxPRO (instead of XT/XTPE/XYZ) or NV50GT equivalent.

If ATI can bring these new 'mid-range' cards to market in any number (hopefully using the 0.11 process will help volumes) and at a similar cost to mfr as the X700XT, then it sounds like the consumer and ATI win. Trying to push the X700XT to market simply to fill some imaginary quota makes no sense to anyone except ATI's detractors.

 

[Bjorn]

You're trying to tell us that someone who was going to plonk down the same amount of coin for an X700XT isn't going to be happy that they were saved from the inevitable buyer's remorse of knowing that just 2 months later they could've bought better card for just as much if not less (retailers jacking up prices).

The point is, you can't wait forever. Wait for another 6 months and they could get an even better card for the same amount of money.

Maybe it's just me but prefer if the cards that are sent out to the reviewers are cards that i can buy within a reasonable amount of time.

 

[JoshMST]

Well, in my years of experience with these guys, I think this pretty much sums it up:

There are lies, damn lies, and then there is PR.

The PR guys twist essentially everything, and their job is to make their products look good while making the competitors products look bad. No matter what industry you are in, it is the same thing. I remember having knock-down dragouts with PR folks when they have tried to push garbage onto me about "why we have market leadership and why the competition is a joke/poser/etc.".

The bottom line is that NV and ATI both do the same thing, both have been guilty of trying to mislead the customer, both have had their fair share of black eyes through the years. The best thing we can do as customers is to buy the product that fits our needs after plenty of research, and not listen too terribly closely to what the PR folks have to say. There are very good products available from both NV and ATI at the moment, and we should really just look at those and not pay attention to the "reviewer only" products that are supposed to prove market dominance and leadership.

Also remember that the engineers at these companies are usually not deeply involved in PR. Sure, they inform and educate the PR folks on the features of their products, but I don't think they often whisper to the PR folks, "Hey, the other company's product is horrible/defective/inferior due to this..." I think PR comes up with that stuff pretty much by themselves. In things like the dual slot cooling for ATI, obviously an engineer came up with the design because "It just works better." And now PR has to spin this design change into "We decided to do it, but we did it better!"

So, I wouldn't worry too much about this letter making a dent in the way these companies deal with their customers and the press. Sure, they may pay a little bit of lip service to it, or reply to it denying the accusations, but business will go on as usual. The best thing we can do is stay informed, keep our eyes open, and try not to get too involved in the hype from the PR types.

 

[ninelven]

Its not very interesting when u consider in less than a year you can have an r520 (dunno what nvidia is doing if the nv50 is indeed canceled) that can be almost as fast as the sli nv50 if not faster in a single set up .

LOL, where did you get that idea from?

 

[Dave Baumann]

In things like the dual slot cooling for ATI, obviously an engineer came up with the design because "It just works better." And now PR has to spin this design change into "We decided to do it, but we did it better!"

The factor there are likely to be:

1 - It would improve yeild at those clocks with better cooling.
2 - Dell now accepts dual slot cooling
3 - PEG 150W specification calls for the power to be taken from the adjacent slot so in the future this will be the norm for > 75W boards.

 

[GrapeApe]

Maybe it's just me but prefer if the cards that are sent out to the reviewers are cards that i can buy within a reasonable amount of time.

I agree with you. I prefer product very close to launch, the way it was with the X800PRO. Although I did see some XTPEs in Toronto shortly (in graphics terms) after release. I think those and many others simply fulfilled the idea of not a paper launch in that you could purchase them, but that there was such limited numbers to purchase doesn't follow the spirit of ATI's pledge, despite meeting the exact words of their statement about paper launches.

Personally I always expected the X700XT to arrive in limited numbers (I now expect that of all the top boards in every segment because all the companies try and push their parts so hard yields aren't as good as last generation), so I'm not sure exactly how delayed they would be. In the end you might get the X800 in quantity within about the same time frame as we would've seen X700XTs, and this also frees up chips for the X700PRO. And while I agree you can't wait for ever (people did that with their GF4tis bypassing the FX, and waiting for something newer than the R9600XT/X600 and XGI fans will be waiting forever, however waiting a few weeks extra to get a far better part is worth it, and both nV and ATI know this, and that's why they do so many 'initial volume PR parts only' launches to make people postpone their purchase of their competitor's part because it's said to be great value. Only one it arrives, there's no volume and prices are out of whack due to resellers doing their own supply/demand calculations. (both ATI and nV should force MSRP pricing IMO, especially ATI which sell cards directly, but they won't because that helps us but hurts their fragile distibutionchain).

In anycase these two specific cards are close enough in release time that this is still a god option for those who still hadn't pulled the trigger on either card, especially those of us (me included) who have been waiting for good socket 939 solutions to reach us so we can start a new build. I would've bought something else before, but considering that other factors conspired to delay my purchase, I'm definitely going to take advanatge of this new opportunity.

Don't wait for ever I agree, but adding 2-3 weeks to a wait can be worth it if you KNOW what's right around the corner and it's a better fit. Seriously how many people here don't have a card that's 'fine' for now, we can all wait a bit, just not continually.

 

[Bjorn]

Personally I always expected the X700XT to arrive in limited numbers

Why ? I personally expected the 6600 GT to be more rare then the X700XT considering that it has more transistors and was clocked higher. But i didn't think that any of them would be more rare then even the high end cards.

 

[jvd]

Its not very interesting when u consider in less than a year you can have an r520 (dunno what nvidia is doing if the nv50 is indeed canceled) that can be almost as fast as the sli nv50 if not faster in a single set up .

That remains to be seen though. The R9800 is hardly two times faster then the 9700 f.e. And the people that buy's two 6800 Ultras are probably the same people that will buy two NV5x's when they come out so i don't think they will care that much.

Your wrong though.

The 9800 compared to the 9700 is like the x850 compared to the x800 .

THe r520 is a whole new model number. just as the r420 was a new model number from the r300

To give you an idea the r200s performance was more than doubled wit the r300 introduction and the r300s performance was more than doubled with the r420 introduction. I don't see why it wont happen

as for two people who buy 2 6800ultras doesn't matter. It doesn't make sli in that format anymore interesting .

All it makes it is more expensive to own the fastest set up .

 

[Nv500]

Pay 120% more money for 70-80% better performance, sure not so cost-efficient, but since when high-end products are cost-efficient?

Also if you compare SLied NV40 with r520 or NV50, of cause you can say its not cost-efficient, but you should know few products are cost-efficient if you compare them with their future replacements unless manufacturers mess everything up.

Delivering tommorrows performance today, thats the main point of SLI.

 

[jvd]

Pay 120% more money for 70-80% better performance, sure not so cost-efficient, but since when high-end products are cost-efficient?

Also if you compare SLied NV40 with r520 or NV50, of cause you can say its not cost-efficient, but you should know few products are cost-efficient if you compare them with their future replacements unless manufacturers mess everything up.

Delivering tommorrows performance today, thats the main point of SLI.

Look .


Paying 1000$ + for a high end sli set up for tommorows performance isn't true . It may be true this generation of sli as the r520 and nv50 will still be sm 3.0 parts. But what about sli nv50s ? They wont be offering nv60 performance as that will be a sm4.0 part. There will surely be things you can't do on sm3.0 that can be done on sm 4.0. Not to mention other things in dx 10 / wgf 1.0 that wont be in that set up.

Not only that but there are many cons to the sli set up that wont be there with the nv50 or r520. Not to mention that tommorows performance will be two r20s or two nv50s .


But it still doesn't make adding a second card in for performance any more interesting .

Even the second chip on one board isn't all that interesting but its more interesting than dual card sli as many problems with sli are taken care of and that is my point .

 

[Nv500]

Even if 2X NV50 couldn't give you NV60's performance or features, SLI is still a good way to improve performance.

Some guys want to 100% more performance now, and NVIDIA offers them a choice for a REASONABLE price, whats wrong with that?

(If you know how intel/AMD price their high-end CPUs, you will agree with me on "reasonable" here)

 

[jvd]

Even if 2X NV50 couldn't give you NV60's performance or features, SLI is still a good way to improve performance.

Some guys want to 100% more performance now, and NVIDIA offers them a choice for a REASONABLE price, whats wrong with that?

(If you know how intel/AMD price their high-end CPUs, you will agree with me on "reasonable" here)

Its still not interesting (Even if you claim resonable price)

what part of that don't u get. Just like an athlon 64 4500+ wouldn't be interesting .

 

[GrapeApe]

Why ? I personally expected the 6600 GT to be more rare then the X700XT considering that it has more transistors and was clocked higher. But i didn't think that any of them would be more rare then even the high end cards.

To me it was a feeling. The X700PRO is their MAIN mainstream, they always sell more of those, and therefore produce in large quantity to meet the generica demands, it's better than the X700, but not quite the exotic of the X700XT. When ATI was forced to drop the estimated MSRP from $200 to $249 due to the GF6600GT price, I didn't see ATI as being too keen to ship these en masse with the original features. So I felt that they'd be a little in short supply (law of supply and demand), ATI expects a higher price, then they drop it to compete, shortage to ensues because they aren't keen on producing them at that price, shift customer to other solution, seems pretty logical.

Of course if they expected to get This Price from NCIX, then there'd be a glut of them instead. BTW, that price is meant to spurn orders before finalized prices are set, but see they say they have it in stock.

As for the GF6600GT-AGP and the R9800,etc. Well there is another card in ATI's line-up alot of people seem to forget when getting their panties in a bunch about this, the X800SE. While it's primarily OEM, I have been able to get it here in the Canadian Hinterland since long before the X700XT popped it's head out of it's burrough saw it's shadow and gave us 4 more weeks of no product. All ATI would need to do is lower their price on the X800SE, and then you have a card that could compete with the GF6600GT (winning and losing tests based on setting and type) for the AGP segment. The 'rialto' bridge really isn't as necessary as people make it out to be, but it sure would give ATI more options.

I still think it's much ado about nothing, and will likely end up like THG's stance on the paper launch of the GF6200, the community as a whole will talk about it, but nothing will change, and the big boyz won't give a ratz a$$. It would have been better if it were directed at all parties, but as it's impact is more of a talking point for us than any real shaming of ATI or anyone else, a fair and balanced letter would've gotten even less attention. It's all about the web-hits and page-views I guess.

 

[ChrisRay]

Well. I dont really think an X850/X800 comparison to the 9800/9700 is fair either. There were some memory controler improvements to the 9800 and the clock speed bump was quite a bit more. ((not to mention the fabled fbuffer ))

I do recall some early tests showing the 9800/9700 clock for clock where the 9800 performed slightly better.

 

[Nv500]

Even if 2X NV50 couldn't give you NV60's performance or features, SLI is still a good way to improve performance.

Some guys want to 100% more performance now, and NVIDIA offers them a choice for a REASONABLE price, whats wrong with that?

(If you know how intel/AMD price their high-end CPUs, you will agree with me on "reasonable" here)

Its still not interesting (Even if you claim resonable price)

what part of that don't u get. Just like an athlon 64 4500+ wouldn't be interesting .

You dont stand for everyone or no one on earth would buy a P4EE.

 

[jvd]

This is my last post in response to u nv500.

People buy a p4 ee because of speed . Not because its interesting.


People will buy a athlon 64 4500 because of speed not because its interesting.


People will buy sli not because its interesting but because of speed

ITs simple , what part don't u understand ?