open letter to ATi on gamers-depot

[Pete]

Can you link us to the review of this architecture with the RS480 motherboard? I would like to read it.

Sure. You don't have to look very far for it.

And for those of you that decided to "skim" the article then make your oh so important opinion public, you obviously had made up your mind prior to "skimming" through it. Thank you for telling the world you are more intelligent than he is.

But Duane didn't "make up his mind" before posting his article? In merely skimming the whole article (apparently it's two pages altogether) I found plain fault with a few points. Surely ATi's less than stellar driver stability (problems fixed in one set reappear in another) would make better material than complaining about ATi following the leader, so to speak, WRT dual-slot cooling? (Never mind that Abit was first to the consumer 3D market with a double-height OTES cooler, and basically abandoned it after noise complaints.) Or their very shareholder-oriented decision to stick with SM2.0 for the R4x0 series?

Duane calls ATI out on their Phantom Edition, but why not make note of the Steam survey that shows as many XTPEs out there as 6800Us? Sure, Valve is an obviously potentially biased source, but surely that deserves a mention, or some consideration? I thought he approached the availability problem more thoughtfully previously.

DaveB, you notice the gazillion-post members who express their opinions exactly the same post after post after post? I do. And yes, it is annoying. Sure, there is this thing called free-speech. But that free-speech right also allows you or another moderator to actually stand up and demand better. I personally have perceived less posting of any interest being done here. I don't know the exact answer to why I perceive that. That is at least my observation. Take it for what it's worth if you want. I visit here hoping that just once, there could be an interesting conversation about 3d/3d technology without the same IHV fanatics turning it into a pissing match. I think you should demand better. Actually, I would applaud it.

Perhaps us gazillion-post members repeat ourselves because a gazillion partially erroneous rants like Duane's repeat the same mistakes that drive us to post a gazillion times in the first place.

You want me to applaud his errors? Heck, I visit AT and B3D daily, and the first thing I do after thanking the author for a good article is point out his errors (usually in a constructive fashion). Of course, most of those errors are minor spelling/wording bloopers. I think Duane's got the grammar covered, but he could use some fact-checking.

I'm exercising my free speech to demand better from Duane (as I do of Anand, Dave, Josh, and the other 3D regulars). I'm not sure how this is a pissing match as much as it is taking Duane to task for a somewhat sloppy rant. This makes you unhappy? Don't you think that the pictures in the article lend it a somewhat "silly" atmosphere right off the bat?

Look, his last few bullet point for both the bridge chips and marketing leadership can be crossed off right away. ATi is bridging PCIe to AGP, not the other way around, so the issues of exploiting PCIe's full bandwidth (as I showed with a link in my previous post) are basically moot. And SLI, TurboCache, and dual-slot designs are also moot.

The cyclical or even inevitable (business is business, and marketers will downplay competitors) nature of some of these problems makes complaining about them, or about who was first, even sillier. SLI? nV mocked 3dfx for using it when they could ride the manufacturing razor edge to win after win. They're using it now not because they thought of it first, but because manufacturing constraints appear to bring it back into the picture: see Gigabyte's 6600GT-SLI-on-a-card. (Regardless of who got their first, the ability to overcome manufacturing limits by simply plugging in another card is undeniably cool. Similar to dual-core CPUs, I see ATi moving this way, too.) Dual-slot cooling? Honestly, who cares, even though apparently Abit thought of it first, and Arctic Cooling made it popular (rather than just available) with their silent yet still effective solutions?

Anyway, I guess you win by provoking such a long response from me.

 

[Geo]

i find this biatching about availability to be funny. it would be a problem if ati was the only game in town. they are not. if ati decides that the agp market is not where they want to be at this point, that is their decision. dont like it? buy nvidia.

Don't like it. Did buy Nvidia. Still get to bitch about it. God Bless America. [wanders off humming 'My Country 'Tis of Thee', so our British friends can think it is that 'other' song.]

 

[drkrvn]

i find this biatching about availability to be funny. it would be a problem if ati was the only game in town. they are not. if ati decides that the agp market is not where they want to be at this point, that is their decision. dont like it? buy nvidia.

Don't like it. Did buy Nvidia. Still get to bitch about it. God Bless America. [wanders off humming 'My Country 'Tis of Thee', so our British friends can think it is that 'other' song.]

Duane?

 

[ondaedg]

Your long rant is no victory for me. Your rebuttals to Duane's article do not in any way shape or form show me that he is wrong. Although that is not the point. So do you come here to tell people they are wrong? That's not why I come here. Obvious errors are one thing. Using Steam as a data source is another. Understatement of the year has to be <"Sure, Valve is an obviously potentially biased source, but surely that deserves a mention, or some consideration?">. Uhm, did you forget that ATI bundled Half-Life2 (vouchers) with their cards? Or maybe you forgot that Valve publicly endorsed ATI cards for their game. Of course there is going to be alot of ATI cards showing up on Steam. That would be like me arguing that there are more Geforce Ultra Extremes than X800XTs because ID Software told me so. I think the funniest part is you think Duane is saying ATI is taking credit for a Dual Slot Cooling Solution. Who would want to take credit for a cooling solution that takes up two slots? You got it all backwards which is why you should read the article instead of "skim". ATI criticized Nvidia when the NV30 Ultra launched for its dual-slot screamer cooling solution. He is merely pointing out the irony that now they have one. Heh, thanks for the info about Abit.... Fact is you are telling me his facts are wrong, but you have no solid facts that he actually is. As a matter of fact, your already established opinion and plain old arrogance prevented you from reading the article correctly which does nothing but prove my point. So you shot the article down and gave me an excuse for a repetitive post..... Hey, I got an idea. How bout this.... Talk about video cards. Novel eh?

 

[jvd]

ATI criticized Nvidia when the NV30 Ultra launched for its dual-slot screamer cooling solution. He is merely pointing out the irony that now they have one

Just want to point out that this was over 2 years ago. Not only that but ati's dual slot solution (From what a few reviewers have told me) makes even less noise than the already reduced noise dual slot cooler of the nv40.


Another thing on betas. They are fine as long as for the first 7 months of release those are not the only drivers avaliable to your users .

They released betas for thier costumers who wanted them as some could not wait the two weeks for better doom 3 performance.


The article had some good points and some bad points

 

[Tim]

Uhm, did you forget that ATI bundled Half-Life2 (vouchers) with their cards?

Not with the x800 cards.

Or maybe you forgot that Valve publicly endorsed ATI cards for their game. Of course there is going to be alot of ATI cards showing up on Steam.

The wast mayority of the people in the steam stats are the millions of counter strike players - I doubt the endorsements of HL2 had a big impact on them.

That would be like me arguing that there are more Geforce Ultra Extremes than X800XTs because ID Software told me so.

That is completely nonsense.

I think the funniest part is you think Duane is saying ATI is taking credit for a Dual Slot Cooling Solution. Who would want to take credit for a cooling solution that takes up two slots? You got it all backwards which is why you should read the article instead of "skim". ATI criticized Nvidia when the NV30 Ultra launched for its dual-slot screamer cooling solution.

The main reason the NV30 dual slot cooler was criticized is that it was a terrible design, not only was it noisy like hell it was it was also sucking air (and dust) into case instead of removing the heat. NVIDIA used two slots for a terrible cooler they deserved to be criticized, if they had come up with a good quiet solution very few would have cared if it used two slots or not.

He is merely pointing out the irony that now they have one.

It was years ago that Ati criticized NVIDIAs (very poor) two slot solution, that you can't use ideas that you criticized in the past would be absurd it would mean no SLI from NVIDIA, no 64bit x86 from Intel etc etc.

Heh, thanks for the info about Abit.... Fact is you are telling me his facts are wrong, but you have no solid facts that he actually is.

Solid facts like HyperMemory was responce to TurboCache even thought HyperMemory was launched way before TurboCahe? Fact is he got facts wrong (TurboCache V. Hypermemory), he twisted the facts (two slot solution) and speculated (volume of 6800U v. x800XT PE).

As a matter of fact, your already established opinion and plain old arrogance prevented you from reading the article correctly which does nothing but prove my point.

You have done nothing at all to prove you point.

 

[John Reynolds]

Hey, I got an idea. How bout this.... Talk about video cards. Novel eh?

In a forum titled 3D Graphics Companies and Industry? Me thinks thou doth protest too much. When an editorial bases its opinion on factual errors then its conclusions must be called into question. Pretty simple concept, actually.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Thief!!

http://www.elitebastards.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8443

Sorry! I knew I'd read it somewhere when I posted it, but couldn't think of where.

My apologies for not sourcing you.

Digi, why is this "hateful"? Your own preferences clouding your judgment? What has ATI done for him that should dictate how he should question them? I saw no "hate" nor disrespect in them. If that was hateful, then most news/media outlet employees would be unemployed.

When the article fails to report all relevant facts it tends to present the appearance of bias, and in this case it's an anti-ATi bias...IMHO.

When an editorial bases its opinion on factual errors then its conclusions must be called into question. Pretty simple concept, actually.

Heck, even I get what you're talking about and agree.

 

[Richthofen]

Just skimmed through it and one daft bit that stuck out was the claim that ATI's "HyperMemory" was just a wait and see response to NV's "TurboCache". HyperMemory was announced months ago wasn't it, so how can it be a response to TurboCache which was announced earlier this week?

I'll agree with Digi that the article seems somewhat biased and has an unpleasant tone. They could have made the same criticisms without the 'attitude' - I, for one, would have taken it much more seriously without the childishness.

well i think he thought more about actual products with this technology. TurboCache will make its way into the market during the next 4 weeks.
On the other hand i still have to see on which value segment graphics card ATI will use its HyperMemory.
I don't think his article is biased. He is just pointing out ATIs flip flop strategy. Today we say this and tomorrow we will say that.
Looking at both product lines at the moment and during the last 6 month i think is it pretty clear that Nvidia simply did a better job. They have had the better products at very important price points and they have less problems with availability. Further on they have had their HSI bridge chip available from the very beginning unlike ATI. They were laughing about that and now? No X700XT available nothing in the AGP market and still waiting for their very own bridge chip.
I would say with R4xx they are very far away from R3xx days.
The competition delivers more for the same prices at the moment and is pushing SM3 technology very hard down into the market. They deserve credit for that. I will not applaud ATI for such a small step with R4xx over R3xx and still having problems with availability and performance @ critical price points.

 

[MrBond]

I thought the article could have done much better without the childish name calling. It was stupid in election 2004, and it's stupid now. ("Oh look I can use photoshop to make a subtle edit to an out-of-context phrase. AREN'T I WITTY")

Reversing your position is not a completely bad idea, and is even necessary in business. I don't think Intel would have a very bright future if they said "screw x86-64, no matter how much money that's making for AMD we must stay the course with Itanic." If ATI comes to reevaluate its current position and it's seeing that AFR SLI is the wave of the future, then so be it.

And yeah, the points about the two slot cooler were just wrong. Most people were comfortable with the two-slot bit of it, cause as everyone "knew" back then, the first PCI slot had the same IRQ as the AGP. Probably not true for PCIe anymore, but that was the case back then.

Plus, back with the 5800 vs 9700, the case was also "if ATI doesn't need a noisy and hot two slot cooler to kick ass, why does nvidia need one to lose?" Nowadays, both companies are using two slot coolers for their high-end with ATI having just made the jump, so even that point doesn't work anymore.

 

[Pete]

onda, I cancelled my reply to you, as I figured you'd dismiss it as you did with your last post, and I didn't think further discussion would resolve anything (on account of our mutual "established opinion and plain old arrogance"). jvd, Tim, and John covered most of my points almost verbatim, anyway.

 

[martrox]

I will not applaud ATI for such a small step with R4xx over R3xx and still having problems with availability and performance @ critical price points.

And just when would you EVER applaud ATI for anything?

 

[jvd]

Heh just glanced at the damn thing again. He Says this

If your business plan is to really take a “wait and see†approach then why not just admit to that? The recent hotspot on this list is NVIDIA’s SLI; a technology that has already proven it provides best-of-class 3D performance – something your own Richard Huddy referred to as “Crazyâ€. Now we’re hearing you’re working on Multi-rendering? Flip-Flop.

But this is what his link points to

The truth is that these kind of exotic arrangements are of interest to only a tiny minority of gamers. Almost all of the X800 boards that are sold will go into a standard PC. Putting several chips onto one board, or several boards into one machine makes the system very expensive and most people won’t go there.

Also note that the SLI system from NVIDIA is another example of an unbalanced design. It will draw an amazing amount of power (for most people that will necessitate a new power supply) and will generate a massive amount of heat and noise. As a technology demonstration it is interesting, but as a gaming setup - it’s crazy!

When RIchard say it was crazy ? He pointed out the facts of the issues that were accurate back in august when this was published. 2 6800ultras , 6800gts or 6800nus would require a new power supply Would be very expensive , is not very efficent , has many problems working and creates a ton of heat and noise .

Why do u think the most interesting sli to come out so far is the dual 6600gts on one card set up .


He goes on to say this in his article

What concerns us, however, is what appears to be a recent pattern of flip-flopping on technical issues as well as a stark inability to deliver to the masses what you claim to be “shipping in volumeâ€.

First you “launch†the X800 XT Platinum Edition – a product that’s now affectionately referred to as “Phantom Edition†– you send out a few review boards to the press and a couple to a selected OEM and our readers still have yet to find them in stores or online etailers in volume

Yet from that same link as above we get this

OC-Zone: While ATI launch X800 series, after Nvidia launched NV40, ATI managed to put some of their products on the store shelves first, and Nvidia failed fill any for quite sometime, does this mean that ATI is getting pretty good wields for X800Pro? What about X800XT PE?

Not only that but if the x800xt pe is a phatom edition wtf is the ultra extreme ?

More recently, you “launched†the X850XT Platinum Edition – yet again we see a very limited amount of reviews and have our doubts that you’ll be able to ship them in VOLUME any time soon

How is this diffrent than nvidia ? THey paper launched the nv40 almost 2 and a half months before we were able to get our hands on them .


He then goes on to point out hardocp saying the x800xl would be good if ati could ship it .


I don't have problems finding ati's cards except for the x700xt

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-142-031&depa=0 x800xt pe vivo in stock

THey also have the x800se all the way through the x800xt and xt pe in stock and ready to ship .

It took me ten seconds to find these . How can the pe be phatomware ?


Same website btw i can find the x700pro and non pro in stock with 128 or 256 megs of ram

NVIDIA ATI
The Way It's Meant To Be Played Get in the Game
Dawn Ruby
MXM Axiom
SLI Multi-Rendering
TurboCache HyperMemory
First with Dual-Slot Design X850 XT PE

How about things that matter

Nvidia Ati

Cheating Not cheating
Broken video encode on nv40 No broken hardware
Lack luster first gen dx 9 card First dx 9 card
Promising dx 9 for the 100$ market First 200$ dx 9 card with acceptable performance


There are other thigns i can say.


10 seconds of skiming through the article and it made me laugh.

 

[Bjorn]

(They have a problem with ATi dumping the X700 for a card that is better at the same pricepoint? :| How does that hurt anyone? )

I don't really know how you got that. I read it more as a problem with ATi dumping the X700 XT because it was just a "imaginary" competitor to the 6600 GT:

Next up is the “launchâ€￾ of the X700 XT; a product that was squarely aimed at displacing the NVIDIA 6600GT card even though it lost in most of the benchmarks. Again, we saw a few selected publications getting review boards, but still have yet to see them in any retailer or etailer. We're also now learning that you've cancelled the X700 XT altogether.

 

[Bjorn]

Why do u think the most interesting sli to come out so far is the dual 6600gts on one card set up .

I would say that this is the most uninteresting SLI thing that's out so far. Two GT's are imo by far the most interesting SLI product.

 

[drkrvn]

(They have a problem with ATi dumping the X700 for a card that is better at the same pricepoint? :| How does that hurt anyone? )

I don't really know how you got that. I read it more as a problem with ATi dumping the X700 XT because it was just a "imaginary" competitor to the 6600 GT:

Next up is the “launchâ€￾ of the X700 XT; a product that was squarely aimed at displacing the NVIDIA 6600GT card even though it lost in most of the benchmarks. Again, we saw a few selected publications getting review boards, but still have yet to see them in any retailer or etailer. We're also now learning that you've cancelled the X700 XT altogether.

how exactly is it a problem though? or who exactly is this a problem for? its ati's business, if duane or any other reviewer feels used by the fact that the x700 was just released to reviewers to screw with nvidia, thats their problem. simple solution, dont review the cards till you can buy it yourself. i see no problem with ati doing essentialy a head fake on this. ati doesnt have to explain their business tactics to duane or anbody else. dont like it, dont review the cards. it doesnt reflect badly on review sites if ati is screwing around. it reflects badly on review sites when thay bitch like whiney children though.

 

[jvd]

Why do u think the most interesting sli to come out so far is the dual 6600gts on one card set up .

I would say that this is the most uninteresting SLI thing that's out so far. Two GT's are imo by far the most interesting SLI product.

More interesting or faster ?

THe dual gpus on one card is much more interesting becuase it solves many of the cons of sli .

No special mobo just any old pci-e slot
No extra power supply required
No loss of expansion slots .


You still have cost and heat issues . But alot of the problems are solved with this

 

[DOGMA1138]

Why do u think the most interesting sli to come out so far is the dual 6600gts on one card set up .

I would say that this is the most uninteresting SLI thing that's out so far. Two GT's are imo by far the most interesting SLI product.

More interesting or faster ?

THe dual gpus on one card is much more interesting becuase it solves many of the cons of sli .

No special mobo just any old pci-e slot
No extra power supply required
No loss of expansion slots .


You still have cost and heat issues . But alot of the problems are solved with this

actualy the DUAL 6600 card need`s a SLI mobo to work, and it will be soled only in a bundle with a GB sli mobo.

 

[jvd]

Really the dual gpus on one card that is being discused on another thread needs dual slot mobo ?

 

[Bjorn]

how exactly is it a problem though? or who exactly is this a problem for?

The potential customers that perhaps start waiting for the X700 XT to arrive after they've seen the reviews ?