One dev's view: X2 a disappointment

[function]

Then theres great 10MB edram debate (which has to be used as a framebuffer Confused ). I still don't really understand how my x800xt and xbox are pumping out 1600x1200x32bit 4x fsaa and 720x480x32bit with 0 edram. Must be magic.

When your x800xt is getting it's arse handed to it by a system with a little over one half of the x800xt's memory bandwidth (and that's shared between GPU and a fast CPU) it's performance should seem a little less 'magic'.

Creativity based developers with ca$h like Rare, Teamninja, some capcom teams, and Retro are really gonna shine nextgen. Corporate based developers that have been milking middleware for 4 years are gonna have some growing pains at first.

lol, could have sworn that Rare, Team Ninja and Capcom had used the Xbox SDKs and DirectX. But no, then they wouldn't be "Creativity based developers", they'd just be "Corporate based developers". And presumeably, being a "corporate based developer" (?) is bad.

Middleware eh? Can't live without it, and apparently you suck if you use it.

 

[sunscar]

Just got to say one thing...

For Fu(l<$ sake can people be civil for a second?! Give the guy some respect. Cpiasminc, whom I speak to often, is an accademian and is not in this whole soup to misdirect, misinform, or make flights of fancy about anything. Currently he's working at a game development house (which I will not disclose) and is privy to a few things that only a select few here are. That is the whole story.

This whole thing has been completely overblown.

Final bits... The guy replying to Cpiasminc's quoted comment on that Xbox forum blew the entire thing out of proportion, and he's an idiot anyway (how three processors instantly corelates to 60+ frames persecond gaming is beyond me). He's not biased toward any piece of hardware. Why would he be? His company develops for both of them. More than just one comment needs to be analysed before you label the man a hardware soloist. He's actually just happy to have either of them to work with, and was merely stating that so far, deving for Xbox2/next has been a little bit of an "experience". Nothing more, nothing less. Also, Acert, the point is moot, not mute.


I hope that didn't come off wrong. I just hate to see a dog fight. I'm glad to see XBDestro sticking up for him, and Jaws too, Might've seen Alejux in there somewhere.


G'night friends



Soluris Diaboluz

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I will cut to my conclusion now: After going paragraph by paragraph through this post, I see (1) nothing new information wise (2) and a lot of his opinion that is very subjective...

Until then he speculation is just his opinion on what appears to be already public info.

I've gotta ask, why go to such a lengthy post to point out the obvious? The title of the thread, 'One Dev's View:" shows it's an individual's opinion, and his post clearly shows it's his opinion, not pure facts. What the guy's (or gal's!) saying is XB2 is good, but part of the natural progression and not some amazing leap into the realms of unbelievability. Why say this? Perhaps because recent noises from MS are suggesting otherwise, using Sony-style hype to make people believe XB2 is more than it is.

The only points of contention really are 1) Is this guy (gal) for real, which can't really be answered on this evidence alone and 2) Are games gonna be stuck at 30 fps? I don't think 1) is particularly relevant, as it's an opinion and even if not a real dev it's not trying to add new information to what's already known. 2) Has been argued, and I guess we'll wait and see.

Otherwise I don't know what the fuss is about? Why isn't one person allowed to think a shared cache isn't wonderful, or a piece of hardware limited by costs isn't as wonderful as one might have hoped when hopes often are economically unviable (how many of us still hope for a 4 PE PS3!)

 

[Riddlewire]

Give the guy some respect. Cpiasminc, whom I speak to often, is an accademian and is not in this whole soup to misdirect, misinform, or make flights of fancy about anything.

He's pretty ignorant.
Good intentions or not, he threw a cherry bomb into a hornet's nest. A seasoned developer wouldn't have been so careless.
Maybe your friend spends all his time with his nose buried in books or pouring through code. I suppose he could be brilliant. He clearly has no idea how the 'console wars' work, though. And, whether he wanted to be or not, he made himself a prime participant in those wars with his post. Everthing that has followed was to be expected. That's the way things are, whether we like them or not.

 

[j^aws]

Give the guy some respect. Cpiasminc, whom I speak to often, is an accademian and is not in this whole soup to misdirect, misinform, or make flights of fancy about anything.

He's pretty ignorant.
Good intentions or not, he threw a cherry bomb into a hornet's nest. A seasoned developer wouldn't have been so careless.
Maybe your friend spends all his time with his nose buried in books or pouring through code. I suppose he could be brilliant. He clearly has no idea how the 'console wars' work, though. And, whether he wanted to be or not, he made himself a prime participant in those wars with his post. Everthing that has followed was to be expected. That's the way things are, whether we like them or not.

I disagree strongly... I've seen DeanoC divulge MORE so called 'info', be it indirectly or not, and not have his face dragged across the so called internet that we all so lovingly participate in...

The thing is alot of these idiots wouldn't know 'info', even if they had 'INFO' tattooed into their foreheads with a flourescent pink jackhammer...

 

[AlNom]

Deano doesn't write huge paragraphs that catch attention. And the way the info is presented... "Let's SUPPOSE blah blah blah"... or "just think about it because I'm not going to say, but I'll just nod randomly"




Anyway, the popcorn is almost done here... shall I make some more?

*runs*

 

[AzBat]

Another reply from cpiasminc...

http://www.psinext.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=115231

*EDIT*

http://www.psinext.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=114209

Seems he's getting a lot of conflicting info. I'm starting to wonder if the problem is just with his sources and not Microsoft as he now claims there's not a single person at MS that can clear up the info. Bleh

Tommy McClain

 

[aaaaa00]

After his last posts I find it difficult to believe cpiasminc really knows what he's talking about or really has access to a devkit or real specs.

 

[Spidermate]

Another reply from cpiasminc...

http://www.psinext.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=115231

*EDIT*

http://www.psinext.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=114209

Seems he's getting a lot of conflicting info. I'm starting to wonder if the problem is just with his sources and not Microsoft as he now claims there's not a single person at MS that can clear up the info. Bleh

Tommy McClain

I believe this is with just about any developer. I have witness a few stating what they could one day and something new being said on another. As they say there, this may be Microsoft's way of covering up the real specs or what could possibly be of them.

 

[Carl B]

Give the guy some respect. Cpiasminc, whom I speak to often, is an accademian and is not in this whole soup to misdirect, misinform, or make flights of fancy about anything.

He's pretty ignorant.
Good intentions or not, he threw a cherry bomb into a hornet's nest. A seasoned developer wouldn't have been so careless.
Maybe your friend spends all his time with his nose buried in books or pouring through code. I suppose he could be brilliant. He clearly has no idea how the 'console wars' work, though. And, whether he wanted to be or not, he made himself a prime participant in those wars with his post. Everthing that has followed was to be expected. That's the way things are, whether we like them or not.

Riddleware you are totally out of line. Why should everyone out there 'know how the console wars work?' That if you post something on one forum, you better be ready to deal with it showing up on several other forums completely out of context. Maybe that's the way things were, but for my part, and I can tell for some others too, I'm getting a little sick of that behavior. The Internet's not all that old, but it's time for it to start growing up behavior-wise.

 

[Carl B]

@Acert93:

I would include your post, but it is just too long and I don't want to take valuable page space with a quote.

But basically, you are saying it is his opinion. Well no kidding, like he ever said anything else. I think what people who are all worked up over this need to do is to actually go visit the thread on which that information was posted and to see it all in context. That post wasn't written to be 'the bomb,' it was written to address technology partnerships as handled by Microsoft as opposed to Sony.

The guy is no PS3 fan-boy, and if people feels he knocks XBox 2 unfairly, which I do not believe he is doing, well he's no less un-sympathetic to those who feel the PS3 will be the be-all end-all.

I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting your post to have been more aggresive than it was intended to be, I just don't want the perception to be that he was knocking XBox 2 - he's just saying he was hoping for more.

 

[Riddlewire]

Well...
Perhaps I lay blame at the wrong feet.
I still stand by my comments. I don't assert that he is wrong, only that one has to expect a backlash for such provocative statements.
However, it is pretty ignorant of all those attacking and defending him to think that he can just post such commentary and not have it blow up as it has.

 

[a688]

Well...
Perhaps I lay blame at the wrong feet.
I still stand by my comments. I don't assert that he is wrong, only that one has to expect a backlash for such provocative statements.
However, it is pretty ignorant of all those attacking and defending him to think that he can just post such commentary and not have it blow up as it has.

Shit I was about to reply with just this. If he develops for consoles and know ANYTHING about the console community online he would realize that people are rabid over their favoriate console. Also, its pretty sad you running around everywhere trying to tell people they are wrong for their remarks concerning his post.

 

[MfA]

Cpiasminc, whom I speak to often, is an accademian

Do you mean academic? Or maybe you mean macademian

 

[EndR]

Cpiasminc, whom I speak to often, is an accademian

Do you mean academic? Or maybe you mean macademian

macademian would explain a lot..a nut is what he is..

 

[Carl B]

Well...
Perhaps I lay blame at the wrong feet.
I still stand by my comments. I don't assert that he is wrong, only that one has to expect a backlash for such provocative statements.
However, it is pretty ignorant of all those attacking and defending him to think that he can just post such commentary and not have it blow up as it has.

Shit I was about to reply with just this. If he develops for consoles and know ANYTHING about the console community online he would realize that people are rabid over their favoriate console. Also, its pretty sad you running around everywhere trying to tell people they are wrong for their remarks concerning his post.

I'll assume that by 'you' you mean me.

Well be that as it may, I think this whole 'people are rabid about their consoles' thing is ridiculous. I got a Nintendo for Christmas one year, and have kept up ever since - that tells you how long I've been a 'console gamer.' But I was never into this blood feud stuff, and I can tell you now that I am over a quarter of a century in age, one day you won't care about it either.

It doesn't matter what price in flesh the fanboys out there demand - these forums, ostensibly, are for rational, reasoned conversation. Maybe it is sad I'm 'running around' everywhere, I don't know. No less sad than you telling me my behavior is sad and in the same breath trying to justify the insane culture that is the 'console wars.'

 

[pc999]

His update

Oh, geez... I was hoping this wouldn't really blow up out of proportion. The last thing I wanted was for all that to really make a big fuss on a dozen other forums.

When I say "disappointing", I mean that in respect to everything that was promised. If you're expecting realtime CG, I have my doubts. That is, unless displaced subdivision surface support in hardware is actually going to be there, which is still very much up in the air, and even then, the problem becomes not the polygon count, but the ability to apply complex shaders on the darn things. Even otherwise, early games won't be close to the limits of its power on any of the consoles. We won't see what final hardware looks like until very very short notice prior to the console's release. Nowhere near enough time to try adjust and optimize and try to push the limits of the console. That's why everybody says at least for their first next-gen games, they're not going to shoot higher than 30 fps. As for those few that said 30 fps for good, I really don't know. They're probably just being pessimistic. But then, the only studio I visited that was optimistic about Xbox2 happened to conveniently be located in Seattle.

Also, for that 10 MB of eDRAM -- consider 1920x1080, which is about 2 megapixels... 2 mpix * (4 (32-bit frame buffer) + 4 (32-bit Z-buffer) + 1 (8-bit Stencil)) = ~17.79 MB. Yes it is supposed to hold frame buffer, Z-buffer, and stencil, from what I'm told. You could hold it all at 720p, at least. MS did say that they want developers to at least support 720p (meaning we don't necessarily have to support 1080i, but 720p is apparently a requirement).

The other meaning I have as far as disappointment goes is the fact that up until this time, all my expectations on Xbox2, PS3, and NRev have all been on a sort of underestimation in hopes that the real thing will be far above what I say. At least that way, my being wrong would be a good thing. In Xbox2's case, though, compared to the other two, we're hearing more things now. Although they keep changing from day to day, nothing I've heard has really exceeded my presumably underestimated expectations. The only things I haven't heard about are system bandwidth and the GPU's specs. I don't expect anything incredible, though. Even 4-5x the system bandwidth of a PC is really not good enough -- and I mean that in the sense that the system bandwidth on a PC is god-awful.

 

[bbot]

In that same thread, cpiasminc finally admits his knowledge is based on the "leaked" Xenon block diagram. He has not seen official Xbox2 documents.

Btw is anyone willing to tell us if that statement by the IBM exec about the cpu for Xbox2 having two cores is true or false?

 

[version]

xenon's block diagram is the best choice, if it have enough bandwith then will be the fastest

 

[bbot]

This is the actual quote of cpiasminc:

"What I hear is every bit as much a rumor as what everybody else hears. I haven't seen any hardware documentation myself, either. In fact, I don't think I brought up anything that differs from what everybody else has heard over the several months of speculation and is largely based on that old block diagram that was "leaked" a long time ago. And even among those who have seen real technical specs, it's pretty well stated to be a living document -- nothing is pinned down"


http://www.psinext.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=115742#115742


Are those who were willing to defend him feeling a bit foolish now?