Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

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joker454 said:
Many reasons...some obvious ones being that it makes it easier for a husband to justify the purchase of a 360 if his wife also wants to play it. Or a dude wants to get his girlfriend to play games with him. Perhaps a young boy wants to get his sisters to like it, which makes the 360 easier to ask for as a family Christmas gift. Maybe that early 30's lady who has been eying a 360 to get netflix now will get one as that (inevitable) Natal exercise app pushed them to the point of purchase. Or perhaps early Wii adopters are bored with the machine and want to upgrade. And so on and so on... The casual market is far from locked down. I don't think Arc will succeed partly because of the PS3's price point, but also because Sony once again isn't taking it seriously and it will just land on stores as yet another neglected accessory. Natal on the other hand can be a viable Wii alternative. It should be similarly priced to the Wii and will be heavily backed with content specifically targeting new audiences.




It's surely a subjective list, but personally XBLive offers far more to casual gamers than PSN does, almost lopsided I'd say. Add in the ability to play demos for all content on XBLive and it's the obvious choice for the casual gamer.
Click to expand...
Aren't you getting ahead of yourself here (in bold)?
 
Granted I haven't played a Gradius game in well over a decade, but I don't see that being conducive to motion controls. I remember Gradius games as requiring split second precision movements in order to survive more than a few levels.

Not sure what parts of Gradius would be amenable to motion controls.

Regards,
SB
 
goonergaz said:
Couple of things:

1) Wii is a totally different market. IMHO the X360 is largely hardcore gamers who like FPSs - call the generalisin, but there's evidence to back this up....etc

A lot of this will be down to how well it's marketed and packaged, but I doubt most of the current X360 gamers really care at all about this...
Click to expand...

I don't altogether disagree... it's all down to the marketing and whether or not the games at launch are able to appeal to both the current 360 owners and potential 360 owners.

However, to catagorise X360 owners as FPS freaks is maybe a generalisation too far. Hardcore, probably yes, but I'd say Shooters, Racers, Guitar Band and Sports are the big sellers. And if Natal can tap into any of those markets, it has a great chance of success. On top of that, puzzle games over XBLA have generally been very popular.

Indeed, even if it's just a case of the 360's GUI being able to be controlled "Minority Support" style, that will have an appeal to a lot of those hardcore gamers as they'll think it's "cool".

goonergaz said:
What I'm saying is the casual market is already owned. What reason would the casual gamer have to buy X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3?

As things stand (casual gamer market):

Wii
PS3
X360

If MS want to widen it's appeal (where they keep trying but largely failing - see their camera and Lips/scene-it), most casual gamers will think it's an eye toy or will already have a Wii...so no need to buy...their main concern (initially) is surely the 35M (or whatever it is) customers allready on board.
Click to expand...

With regards to the Casual market, clearly the Wii holds a huge lead. However, I'm not convinced that the PS3 has attracted much of a casual market at all this generation. The vast majority of the top sellers on the PS3 are of the hardcore "shooter, fighter" variety, along with the same smattering of Guitar Band and racing-type games. Titles such as Singstar and Eyepet haven't really gain any significant amount of traction, just as Lips, etc haven't.

I''d contend that it would be just as easy to say the 360 is more "casual friendly" than the PS3 as it would be the other way around.

However, it's pretty much a meaningless comment to make, as both usersbases are primarily hardcore.

And this is something that Sony recognises. The Arc isn't designed to appeal to the casual market. All of the promises of 1:1 pixel mapping and unprecedented accuracy with user control show is something that is of no interest to the casual market, which is why Sony is appealing to the current hardcore fanbase with the product. And, with the right product (and marketing), it will sell well, but it's not designed to expand the PS3's market outside of the current usersbase.

As you pointed out, NATAL is something of an anathema to the majority of the current 360 userbase and MS are taking much more of a gamble in attempting to appeal to a wider audience. However, they are probably working on the assumption that there are quite a lot of "Dual console" families out there, who have both a Wii and a 360 (just as there are with Wii/PS3 combos) that there is a ready-made market there in which they can gain some traction.

But outside of that? They need a killer-app that'll appeal to the casuals, and I'm not convinced that MS have it in them.
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Granted I haven't played a Gradius game in well over a decade, but I don't see that being conducive to motion controls. I remember Gradius games as requiring split second precision movements in order to survive more than a few levels.

Not sure what parts of Gradius would be amenable to motion controls.
Click to expand...

What about draw your own space ship (Sketch recognition) and 3DTV compatible ? The control scheme would be tricky to innovate.

Konami already implemented head tracking and 3DTV for Metal Gears Online Arcade. Peace Walker has AI weapons which can sing using VOCALOID.
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Whether Natal ends up making X360 more casual than Arc makes PS3 might be up for debate. But from what has been shown and what has been said. PS3 is definitely targetting the Wii's demographics. While Natal (from apperances and statements from MS) is only tangentially targetting the Wii demographics while trying to create an all new demographic (one that is adverse to using/learning how to use controllers, arguable whether that exists or not).
Click to expand...

This is somthing i've been questioning for a long time... The Wii has done excellently in producing and selling appealing videogame and non-videogame software to over 50 million households worldwide, with a controller that is arguably a little more complex than a SNES controller.

Some of these casual folks who bought the Wii were previously non-gamers predominantly, and constantly express their gaming preferences in their purchases of pseudo-games like Wii-fit, Just-dance etc...

However, many are very happy to continue with their Wii gaming system and do not see the Wii-Mote, balance board etc as a barrier to entry into video gaming.

I really can't concieve in my mind who these "so-called masses" who fear games controllers actually are...? If they even exist at all...

Again, i'm not very sure that Natal will provide enough of a meaningful difference in gaming/non-gaming experiences from the likes of eyetoy, MSvision and PSeye, for those casuals who were afraid of game controllers to actually go out and put down money on both the Natal peripheral PLUS 360 console.

I'm just unsure how large the market for Natal actually is... again though it depends on the direction MS ultmately takes the platform with it's software.

I guess the beauty of Natal being a platform for many different types of games and experiences is that it's the software that creates the appeal towards one demographic over another.
 
From one of the videos, it looks like the reticule/view moves with the player's head. Need to try it out to confirm. I didn't really look at the avatar's head to see if it's in sync with the user's head.
 
patsu said:
From one of the videos, it looks like the reticule/view moves with the player's head. Need to try it out to confirm. I didn't really look at the avatar's head to see if it's in sync with the user's head.
Click to expand...
The reticule is obviously going to be where the gun points.

If they use the head movement for real control it would have to be for camera movement (although personally I'd think that would be incredibly unnatural).
 
GT5 uses facial/head tracking while the Metal Gears Arcade seems to use a sensor. I was referring to the use of "head cam/sight" in games (regardless of how they track it).

Should GT5 adopts 3DTV tech, then it will be like the Metal Gears Arcade set up (Need a pair of 3D glasses).
 
scently said:
You really need to do more research before you jump to conclusion.
MS IS going after the casual market with Natal, and of course it can be used to play certain hardcore game in conjunction with the normal controller. This is exactly what they have been saying in their interviews. It will appeal to both end of the gaming spectrum but in differing experiences.
And also you've got third party developers who can do God know what with it.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't realise you held the rights on research and I never said MS ISN'T going for the casual market.

TBH I think you should lower your expectations a little...you could do yourself a favour by not believeing everything Peter Molyneux says!
 
joker454 said:
Many reasons...some obvious ones being that it makes it easier for a husband to justify the purchase of a 360 if his wife also wants to play it. Or a dude wants to get his girlfriend to play games with him. Perhaps a young boy wants to get his sisters to like it, which makes the 360 easier to ask for as a family Christmas gift. Maybe that early 30's lady who has been eying a 360 to get netflix now will get one as that (inevitable) Natal exercise app pushed them to the point of purchase. Or perhaps early Wii adopters are bored with the machine and want to upgrade. And so on and so on... The casual market is far from locked down. I don't think Arc will succeed partly because of the PS3's price point, but also because Sony once again isn't taking it seriously and it will just land on stores as yet another neglected accessory. Natal on the other hand can be a viable Wii alternative. It should be similarly priced to the Wii and will be heavily backed with content specifically targeting new audiences.




It's surely a subjective list, but personally XBLive offers far more to casual gamers than PSN does, almost lopsided I'd say. Add in the ability to play demos for all content on XBLive and it's the obvious choice for the casual gamer.
Click to expand...

Regarding the first comment, I didn't say it wouldn't sell - I'm just saying the stigma this gen is already stuck...MS will have to work really hard as it's so late. I think (like XB1 was) - Natal will be their 'foot in the door' as it were. Test the waters.

WRT XBL v PSN - I can't see how a service you have to pay for monthly (and also per account) offers more than a free service which (to a casual gamer) is nigh on identical! And when you factor in families (a bigger market and even maore casual) XBL goes out the window for me - I'm not paying for 4 accounts!
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Myspace owned online social networking until Facebook took it away from them, despite everyone thinking Facebook would fail when they started trying.

Nintendo and Sega owned console gaming until Sony launched the PS.

Nothing is ever set in stone.

That said, what the heck is "X360 + Natal over the Wii/PS3." Right now the PS3 is as much a casual console as the X360. :p The Wii has a few demographics all to itself currently while the X360 and PS3 share demographics.

Whether Natal ends up making X360 more casual than Arc makes PS3 might be up for debate. But from what has been shown and what has been said. PS3 is definitely targetting the Wii's demographics. While Natal (from apperances and statements from MS) is only tangentially targetting the Wii demographics while trying to create an all new demographic (one that is adverse to using/learning how to use controllers, arguable whether that exists or not).

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

WRT the Facebook comment, they're free services...so it's not a fair comparison, but I understand (and agree) with what you're saying but again - I mean this gen. We're over half-way through...I think anything now (in particular Natal) is testing the water.
 
Rotmm said:
I don't altogether disagree... it's all down to the marketing and whether or not the games at launch are able to appeal to both the current 360 owners and potential 360 owners.

However, to catagorise X360 owners as FPS freaks is maybe a generalisation too far. Hardcore, probably yes, but I'd say Shooters, Racers, Guitar Band and Sports are the big sellers. And if Natal can tap into any of those markets, it has a great chance of success. On top of that, puzzle games over XBLA have generally been very popular.

Indeed, even if it's just a case of the 360's GUI being able to be controlled "Minority Support" style, that will have an appeal to a lot of those hardcore gamers as they'll think it's "cool".



With regards to the Casual market, clearly the Wii holds a huge lead. However, I'm not convinced that the PS3 has attracted much of a casual market at all this generation. The vast majority of the top sellers on the PS3 are of the hardcore "shooter, fighter" variety, along with the same smattering of Guitar Band and racing-type games. Titles such as Singstar and Eyepet haven't really gain any significant amount of traction, just as Lips, etc haven't.

I''d contend that it would be just as easy to say the 360 is more "casual friendly" than the PS3 as it would be the other way around.

However, it's pretty much a meaningless comment to make, as both usersbases are primarily hardcore.

And this is something that Sony recognises. The Arc isn't designed to appeal to the casual market. All of the promises of 1:1 pixel mapping and unprecedented accuracy with user control show is something that is of no interest to the casual market, which is why Sony is appealing to the current hardcore fanbase with the product. And, with the right product (and marketing), it will sell well, but it's not designed to expand the PS3's market outside of the current usersbase.

As you pointed out, NATAL is something of an anathema to the majority of the current 360 userbase and MS are taking much more of a gamble in attempting to appeal to a wider audience. However, they are probably working on the assumption that there are quite a lot of "Dual console" families out there, who have both a Wii and a 360 (just as there are with Wii/PS3 combos) that there is a ready-made market there in which they can gain some traction.

But outside of that? They need a killer-app that'll appeal to the casuals, and I'm not convinced that MS have it in them.
Click to expand...

I never said FPS freaks! However, if you look at the top titles they are FPS heavy (Halo, Gears (ok - not FPS but you know what I mean)).

I'm sure Natal will appear cool, it just has to be significantly better than eyetoy - because (as already demonstrated earlier) eyetoy had 'minority report' sytle software but if it's not very accurate...

I'd say Singstar is far more popluar than Lips, there's certainly more 'buzz' on the net. Then you have free online which is great for casual gamers who only play online infrequently...buzz tv also is good for casual fun - I certainly think people underestimate the free online for casual gamers.

I totally agree tho that Sony are aiming for the hardcore (but also casual) gamer with the arc. I'm looking forward to KZ3/LBP and the Mrs Virtua Tennis ;)
 
goonergaz said:
Sorry, I didn't realise you held the rights on research and I never said MS ISN'T going for the casual market.

TBH I think you should lower your expectations a little...you could do yourself a favour by not believeing everything Peter Molyneux says!
Click to expand...
Dude, my expectation are exactly where I want it to be, thank you very much.:rolleyes:
 
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