Nvidia went SLI because they can't compete?

Status
Not open for further replies.
WaltC said:
So if the top-end single 3d cards available, which outsell SLI systems by a wide margin, are not required by game developers, then what are the odds SLI systems will ever be required? Zero, seems to me.

So if the low-end 3d cards available, which outsell top-end 3d cards by a wide margin, are not required by game developers, then what are the odds top-end 3d cards will ever be required?

WaltC said:
Hummer purchase = how many Hummers? One Hummer, or two? (Heh...;))

Oh please be kidding.....
 
trinibwoy said:
So if the low-end 3d cards available, which outsell top-end 3d cards by a wide margin, are not required by game developers, then what are the odds top-end 3d cards will ever be required?
And if half a chicken laid half an egg in half of a day, how much does a pound of butter weigh? :|
(Sorry, I couldn't resist...your question confused me.)
 
Sxotty said:
No one says you should desire to own such hardware. In fact there is no reason you should desire to own anything more than an egg beater, but that doesn't mean you object to a toaster simply because you do not want one. Having any objection to SM3.0 is ridiculous b/c it is a standard. If someone has objection to what are proprietary technologies then it is understandable. If ATI had developed 3dC and said no one else could use it but them, unless they paid ATI a royalty I would object, but as it is why would I care?

OK, so I should also buy an egg beater that doesn't beat any eggs, and a toaster that doesn't toast any toast--just because the manufacturer assures me that someday their products *will*, just as soon as the chickens and the bread makers find about it...?

:D Excuse me, I'll pass...(while you're up, pass me the egg beater that *works*, OK?)

Most people cannot drive a fast car well, but that doesn't mean I object to someone giving me a dodge viper :p

So, I take it you wouldn't mind selling the Viper just to pay the taxes due on it after it's been "gifted" to you? Oh, yea--and I hear the Viper gets great mileage...;) (Lordy, this is getting silly!)

Now in closing I assume, just perhaps you were trying to say something along the lines of "I do not currently see an advantage in X" but object is just too strong of a word for something like this which makes no sense.

When I'm speaking of my personal preferences I kind of think "object" is an entirely suitable word...;)

P.S. my x800 vivo was better in the price/performance ratio 8) And btw is the only reason I stuck with ATI for the 3rd card in a row.

Ditto! So we do think alike here after all...;) (I was getting worried there for a moment...;))
 
digitalwanderer said:
And if half a chicken laid half an egg in half of a day, how much does a pound of butter weigh? :|
(Sorry, I couldn't resist...your question confused me.)

Haha :LOL: It's simple transitivity. The relationship that exists between a single high-end card and a dual-card setup also applies to mid-range cards and their high-end counterparts. I just substituted the relevant bits in WaltC's comments to demonstrate how irrational they are.
 
trinibwoy said:
So if the low-end 3d cards available, which outsell top-end 3d cards by a wide margin, are not required by game developers, then what are the odds top-end 3d cards will ever be required?

Let's see (grabs Myst 4 product box)...Hmmmm...

The Myst 4 minimum requirements on box said:
Video Card: 32mb DX9-compatible video card (see supported list*)

*Supported Video Cards at Time of Release:ATI Radeon 7000...NVIDIA GeForce 1...

OK, now where were we, again?...;)

Oh please be kidding.....

Nope, I'm not kidding...it's true. If you buy nV SLI you have to buy *TWO* like nV 3d cards or nV SLI won't work.

If you buy a Hummer, you can buy one and it works stand-alone.

(Heh...;) Please don't tell me you think I brought Hummers into this...;) If so, go back and re-read the posts to find out who bought Hummers into it. Not I!)
 
WaltC said:
Anyone understand how Walt can turn that cost analogy into a comparison of 2 Hummer H2s? Once again Walt, you have lost me. Congratulations.

Thank you...;) I do confess that I didn't intend to lose you, so I'll try again...

nV SLI = How many nV 3d cards? (be quick now...;))

A) One 3d card
B) Two 3d cards

Hummer purchase = how many Hummers? One Hummer, or two? (Heh...;))

Cleared up for you?...;)

No, actually it's not clear. You cannot drive two cars at once, however you can use two videocards at once. If you're going to draw an analogy, please make a passing attempt for it to actually be, oh... I don't know... analogous.
 
WaltC said:
OK, now where were we, again?...;)

I see you are trying your best to be anal about this. Your point was that games will never require dual-board solutions for operation and that this precludes the survival of SLI in the marketplace.

A simple rebuttal to this is that no game requires any of the high-end solutions that exist today - but they do exist don't they? You know why - because there are games that are limited by the lower end solutions - just as there are games limited by the best single-board solutions today - modus ponens - there is a place for SLI.


WaltC said:
Nope, I'm not kidding...it's true. If you buy nV SLI you have to buy *TWO* like nV 3d cards or nV SLI won't work.

I was asking because I can't believe you are actually getting hung up on the 'two' when the analogy was obviously (to everyone but you) based on a cost/benefit analysis. You're really fishing there.
 
flf said:
No, actually it's not clear. You cannot drive two cars at once, however you can use two videocards at once. If you're going to draw an analogy, please make a passing attempt for it to actually be, oh... I don't know... analogous.

Man, this conversation is degenerating into the obnoxiously stupid...but OK, I'll play along (it's a boring afternoon...)

OK, cool--now, I have an MSI K8n Neo2 mboard which is running one 3d card stand-alone just fine. Please tell me two things...

1) How can I add a second video card in my current system and then use both videocards at the same time to run the same 3d game...(I suppose I could go dual-monitor--but then, that's not nV SLI at all is it?)

or

2) How I can use two videocards at the same time without first buying two separate videocards, assuming I had a mboard and the other components also necessary to "use them at the same time"?...;)

As for using two cars at once, what I would do in that case is to give one to my wife and use one myself, thereby "driving two cars at once."

Gosh, you guys are really getting silly--I had no idea that such a simple concept as SLI would be so confusing for you. SLI involves two 3d cards--a deuce--a pair--whatever you want to call it--to function. And that, as they say, is that...;) It just won't work with one. Wow...;)

(You might try reading Dave's fine SLI article if you still can't get it.)

And finally, of course, if you are going to assert that I make analogies, please be certain that I'm the one who made the analogy to which you refer. If you back up a few posts you will see that I did not bring the Hummer into the conversation--but that *somebody else* did...;)

Sorry.
 
trinibwoy said:
I see you are trying your best to be anal about this. Your point was that games will never require dual-board solutions for operation and that this precludes the survival of SLI in the marketplace.

Sorry, but what I said was SLI won't be required as a minimum standard for 3d games. You said the rest of it above...;)

A simple rebuttal to this is that no game requires any of the high-end solutions that exist today

Yes, that is exactly what I said the first time...;)


I was asking because I can't believe you are actually getting hung up on the 'two' when the analogy was obviously (to everyone but you) based on a cost/benefit analysis. You're really fishing there.

Oh, sure--why should I get "hung up" on the number 2? It's just a number, right? Has no meaning at all, right? I can see that it's much more fun to pretend as you guys do that 2 =1.

*Sigh* Guess I'm not ready to have that kind of fun...;)
Pity...:D
 
trinibwoy said:
I see you are trying your best to be anal about this. Your point was that games will never require dual-board solutions for operation and that this precludes the survival of SLI in the marketplace.

WaltC said:
Sorry, but what I said was SLI won't be required as a minimum standard for 3d games. You said the rest of it above...;)

No I didn't. It's all here. The logic below should preclude the existence of high-end cards in the marketplace since they are outsold by mid-range cards by a wide margin. I want to know how you arrived at your conclusion that SLI solutions will die just because high-end cards will be cheaper, higher volume, lower performance alternatives.

WaltC said:
So if the top-end single 3d cards available, which outsell SLI systems by a wide margin, are not required by game developers, then what are the odds SLI systems will ever be required? Zero, seems to me. That's what I was talking about. Before we'd ever see "SLI required" on a game box, we'd see "x800 xt or GF6800U required" first, I have no doubt. And I don't think we may ever see that...at least not in the next few years (and where will SLI as a concept be then, I wonder? An historical footnote?)

WaltC said:
Oh, sure--why should I get "hung up" on the number 2? It's just a number, right? Has no meaning at all, right? I can see that it's much more fun to pretend as you guys do that 2 =1.

Come on - you can do better than that.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
DegustatoR said:
Joe DeFuria said:
My main "gripe" with nVidia's solution is how limiting it is...given that you need a "SLI supporting" chipset. That's the main reason why I don't consider it a particularly "hot" solution.
Since when does NV's SLI need a "SLI supporting" chipset?
Isn't it, since forever?
Aren't you guys mixing support for two PCIE x8 (or x16) slots with support for SLI (i really don't know what is it wrt a motherboard...).
 
trinibwoy said:
No I didn't. It's all here. The logic below should preclude the existence of high-end cards in the marketplace since they are outsold by mid-range cards by a wide margin. I want to know how you arrived at your conclusion that SLI solutions will die just because high-end cards will be cheaper, higher volume, lower performance alternatives.


The logic I used had only to do with whether or not nV SLI might ever be required by a game developer as a minimum standard for a game--and nothing whatever to do with the "survival of SLI in the marketplace." That is *entirely* your phrase--and one that I never used.

WaltC said:
So if the top-end single 3d cards available, which outsell SLI systems by a wide margin, are not required by game developers, then what are the odds SLI systems will ever be required? Zero, seems to me. That's what I was talking about. Before we'd ever see "SLI required" on a game box, we'd see "x800 xt or GF6800U required" first, I have no doubt. And I don't think we may ever see that...at least not in the next few years (and where will SLI as a concept be then, I wonder? An historical footnote?)

Oh, I see--you're confusing the fact that I speculated whether or not in a few years anybody would be trying to sell an SLI system, with its current "survival in the marketplace."

You've misunderstood my point, which was that when we reach a point where the x800xt or the 6800U is filling the "minimum requirement" listing for games (as in the R7000, GF1 Myst 4 listing today), I'm betting the top-end 3d cards at that time will be so incredibly powerful that people will look back at today's nV/ATi SLI and laugh--at least the ones who can remember it.

As wildly successful as 3dfx's V2 SLI was in its day, it didn't even last as long a 3dfx, did it? By the time 3dfx bit the big one, it had already discontinued V2 SLI in favor of superior *single-card* solutions. What makes you think the current commercial novelty with SLI will wind up any different?

Come on - you can do better than that.

I don't know how...;) The fact that nV SLI (or any similar SLI proferred by ATi) will require *two* separate 3d cards and a custom environment in order to function seems irrefutable at this point in time. So, I guess that's why I'm *hung up* on "two"--since SLI itself is *hung up* on "two," isn't it?

I really don't understand your objection to me stating the obvious.
 
WaltC said:
The logic I used had only to do with whether or not nV SLI might ever be required by a game developer as a minimum standard for a game--and nothing whatever to do with the "survival of SLI in the marketplace."

I see. And exactly how is SLI becoming a minimum requirement pertinent to this discussion?

WaltC said:
As wildly successful as 3dfx's V2 SLI was in its day, it didn't even last as long a 3dfx, did it? By the time 3dfx bit the big one, it had already discontinued V2 SLI in favor of superior *single-card* solutions. What makes you think the current commercial novelty with SLI will wind up any different?

That was due in no small part to the emergence of the AGP standard which was not SLI friendly. Read Dave's SLI article - it's very informative! ;)

WaltC said:
Oh, I see--you're confusing the fact that I speculated whether or not in a few years anybody would be trying to sell an SLI system, with its current "survival in the marketplace."

You've misunderstood my point, which was that when we reach a point where the x800xt or the 6800U is filling the "minimum requirement" listing for games (as in the R7000, GF1 Myst 4 listing today), I'm betting the top-end 3d cards at that time will be so incredibly powerful that people will look back at today's nV/ATi SLI and laugh--at least the ones who can remember it.

I haven't misunderstood. SLI is a concept - it is not bound to any particular IHV or architecture. What is stopping Nvidia or any other company from providing a dual-gpu setup with two of your 'incredibly powerful' gpu's of the future. Or do you think that hardware will outpace the demands of games? Hardly likely.

WaltC said:
I really don't understand your objection to me stating the obvious.

What's obvious is that you can't admit that your ridicule of another poster's analogy was nothing but infantile. When discussing the cost/benefit ratio of SLI or Hummers as solutions, it does not matter how many different 'parts' the solution comes in.
 
digitalwanderer said:
ondaedg said:
Remember this though, if someone wants to buy an ATI or Nvidia dual solution, they won't give a rat's ar$e what you say. Why? Well, just ask anyone who has an SLI system.
You have no clue about how respected Walt's opinion is around here then. :)

well i think he has. His bias is well known just like yours- end of discussion.
Bottom line is this - SLI is great. Its the best you can get and completly destroys the competition in those situations it has been created for.
Like it or not but Nvidia sells SLI products like hell at the moment and is gaining market share across the board - of course only a small amount of that because of SLI. Mostly because of the much better product mix and newer technology from top to bottom.

According to the topic.....
Well the market determines if someone can compete or not.
As far as the comparison between X8xx and NV4xx products go i would say its ATI who is struggeling a littlebit.
Nvidia is gaining ground in every segment. Thats all we need to know regarding to the topic.
 
trinibwoy said:
I see. And exactly how is SLI becoming a minimum requirement pertinent to this discussion?

Uh, you'd have to ask the person who, several posts back, voiced his "concern" that game developers would start *requiring* SLI for their software. It was in response to his initial comments that I initially made my own comments about it. Gee--and here I am thinking the people asking me questions in this thread have actually read the thread itself. Shame on me, right?

That was due in no small part to the emergence of the AGP standard which was not SLI friendly. Read Dave's SLI article - it's very informative! ;)

Well, I hate to break it to you this way, but dual-slot PCIe mboards are *not* the standard configuration for the great majority of PCIe mboards being manufactured presently. The PCIe mboards the major OEMs are deploying at present are all single-slot PCIex16 mboards. Dual-slot is very much a fringe commercial novelty at the moment and is certainly likely to remain so as the major OEMs have little to no interest in it. Some smaller OEMs (like Alienware) are offering it--but they are also selling many more single-slot PCIe & AGP mboard systems as well, at the same time.

Also, you forget that V2 SLI was PCI--not AGP--and long after AGP slots were appearing on motherboards they were still coming standard with multiple PCI slots. In fact, the very reason 3dfx did so well with V2 SLI in the first place is because whether it had an early AGP slot or not, practically all mboards currently in use at the V2's introduction had a spare PCI slot into which a second V2 was instantly configurable. Today with the case of PCIe mboard deployment the numbers vastly favor single-slot PCIe boards--which are not suitable for nV or ATi SLI at all. That's in sharp contrast to the PCI-slot situation at the time 3dfx shipped the V2.

But I do find it ironic that you are admitting that in the case of PCI vs AGP that single-slot AGP eventually completely overshadowed and obsoleted PCI SLI, even though multiple PCI slots on motherboards were never discontinued as the result of AGP deployment; yet you cannot see how the single-slot deployment of PCIe into the market virtually guarantees a short life for dual-slot PCIe SLI and makes it immediately much more of a novelty than was V2 SLI (which required but an open PCI slot which almost everyone already had when 3dfx introduced V2 SLI.) IE, the majority of PCIe mboard owners *right now* have but a single graphics slot--and that alone renders dual-card SLI an impossibility for them in the absence of a complete mboard swap. Considering that most people have just bought their single-slot PCIex16 mboards--how likely is it that they'll want to switch?

I haven't misunderstood. SLI is a concept - it is not bound to any particular IHV or architecture. What is stopping Nvidia or any other company from providing a dual-gpu setup with two of your 'incredibly powerful' gpu's of the future. Or do you think that hardware will outpace the demands of games? Hardly likely.

See above--you keep forgetting that the majority of PCIe mboards being sold are *single-slot* PCIex16 mboards. So *that's* what's stopping them. What's hardly likely is that SLI will be anything more than a flash-in-the-pan fad, just as it was for 3dfx (which again had a much easier SLI deployment scenario than any IHV will have today because of the ubiquity of multiple-PCI-slot mboards that were installed in the market before 3dfx launched V2 SLI.)

Second thing stopping them: the expense, power requirements and heat--all of these things mean nV/ATi SLI is *bad news* to the larger OEMs like Dell, for instance--who just don't want to sell it. Bottom line is that 3dfx basically gave up V2 SLI *as a concept* primarily *because* they couldn't get any major OEM wins with it--and OEM wins are where these companies really live. It won't be a bit different with the current SLI novelty--just watch and see. No use getting upset with me about it--it's just the way things are.


What's obvious is that you can't admit that your ridicule of another poster's analogy was nothing but infantile. When discussing the cost/benefit ratio of SLI or Hummers as solutions, it does not matter how many different 'parts' the solution comes in.

Oh, baloney...;) I was being "ridiculed" by you and others because both you and others mistakenly believed that *I* had created the "Hummer" analogy in the first place. I didn't create it--but just like you I ridiculed it because it was a poor analogy inapplicable in the first place.

Look--these are merely my personal opinions on the present viability of SLI as a concept and nothing more. If you want to buy SLI go right ahead with my blessing. After all, why should I object to what you do with your money?...;) I'm just not interested in it, and the only thing I'm guilty of is telling you why.
 
Richthofen said:
well i think he has. His bias is well known just like yours- end of discussion.

I should darn well hope it is well known around here...;) I've certainly tried very hard to make my biases known along with my reasons for having them...;)

(Don't you just loathe people who make one biased post after another and then snidely pretend they are as unbiased as the driven snow?...;)) As long as it can be justified coherently, bias is just fine with me.

Bottom line is this - SLI is great. Its the best you can get and completly destroys the competition in those situations it has been created for.

Talk about bias--whew...;)

It's also expensive as hell, hotter 'n hell, louder 'n hell, and requires a giant monitor that can run at high refresh with vsync on to get the full benefit of the concept (which is found at 1600x1200) while also getting the best in IQ (unless you are biased enough to not care about vsync-off tearing, of course.) I've already made this particular point at least once.

Bias to me is wanting to present only the pros about something while pretending there are no cons. I prefer the more balanced view myself...;)
 
WaltC said:
Uh, you'd have to ask the person who, several posts back, voiced his "concern" that game developers would start *requiring* SLI for their software.

Who said that? Only post I could find was this, and he is surely not suggesting what you say.

ondaedg said:
API support is not required Walt. You are expected to know that. Who cares if Nvidia does custom driver support? ATI will do it as well. This has been covered countless times...

WaltC said:
AGP replacing PCI is completely analogous to single PCIe precluding dual-PCIe

I'm not going to touch that one since it makes absolutely no sense.


WaltC said:
See above--you keep forgetting that the majority of PCIe mboards being sold are *single-slot* PCIex16 mboards. So *that's* what's stopping them.

And since when are enthusiast solutions ever concerned with the majority? I'm getting the impression that you simply do not fit the profile of someone who would consider SLI - do you consider yourself a hardcore gamer or hardware enthusiast?

WaltC said:
Second thing stopping them: the expense, power requirements and heat

No, these are all things stopping you!! ;)

WaltC said:
--all of these things mean nV/ATi SLI is *bad news* to the larger OEMs like Dell, for instance--who just don't want to sell it. Bottom line is that 3dfx basically gave up V2 SLI *as a concept* primarily *because* they couldn't get any major OEM wins with it--and OEM wins are where these companies really live. It won't be a bit different with the current SLI novelty--just watch and see. No use getting upset with me about it--it's just the way things are.

You missed one very obvious thing. The enthusiast market is much larger than it was back then and is capable of supporting products on its own. I wish I could find some numbers on the number of DFI Infinity Ultra boards sold at retail compared to OEM.

WaltC said:
Oh, baloney...;) I was being "ridiculed" by you and others because both you and others mistakenly believed that *I* had created the "Hummer" analogy in the first place.

All of us here can read and don't need you to tell us what we mistakenly believed. Yes, someone else created the analogy but then you went prattling on inanely about 1 Hummer vs 2 GPU's. And no it was not a poor analogy since the context was clearly outlined as being the cost/benefit ratio of the purchase. Here it is again to refresh your memory.

ondaedg said:
Do you think a Hummer H2 is a cost effective driving solution? I don't, yet there were waiting lists for people to buy them just so they can drive up and down a fully paved road. SLI is no different.

Honestly, if you are going to argue a point by twisting others' words and bending them to your own reality then you must never lose an argument.
 
WaltC said:
It's also expensive as hell, hotter 'n hell, louder 'n hell, and requires a giant monitor that can run at high refresh with vsync on to get the full benefit of the concept (which is found at 1600x1200) while also getting the best in IQ (unless you are biased enough to not care about vsync-off tearing, of course.) I've already made this particular point at least once.

ROFL!!! Now we need giant monitors for SLI !!?? HAHAHAHAHA!! You are hilarious!!! :LOL: :LOL:

WaltC said:
Bias to me is wanting to present only the pros about something while pretending there are no cons. I prefer the more balanced view myself...;)

So where are your 'balanced' comments on the pros of SLI? Or are there none?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top