NVIDIA shows signs ... [2008 - 2017]

[ShaidarHaran]

I hope the issue doesn't affect your particular model, but its probably better to know about it than to find out by having it fail.

I think this is the link about a heatsink mod for 8400GS m1330s.

Here is another discussing repairs. And another

As a long-time PC service tech, I'd just like to say that a few instances of fan failure in high-end, compact notebooks is by no means an indication of poor design - it's just part of the equation. You cram a lot of high-end hardware into as small a space as possible, make it portable, and throw some barely adequate cooling on it (penny-pinching OEMs), you're going to have thermal problems regardless of how well you've designed your cooling solution.

Plain and simple: laptops have thermal issues (more so than desktops).

 

[AlphaWolf]

As a long-time PC service tech, I'd just like to say that a few instances of fan failure in high-end, compact notebooks is by no means an indication of poor design - it's just part of the equation. You cram a lot of high-end hardware into as small a space as possible, make it portable, and throw some barely adequate cooling on it (penny-pinching OEMs), you're going to have thermal problems regardless of how well you've designed your cooling solution.

Plain and simple: laptops have thermal issues (more so than desktops).

sure but the other dell laptops haven't spawned 50 page threads regarding them. Whether this is related to the Nvidia issue money has been set aside for or not, I don't know, but there seems to be issues with m1330s.

 

[Geo]

And Geo, with respect to your concern about the impact on user confidence: How many users with integrated 8500's in their lappies actually know who or what Nvidia is? In my experience laptop users associate their pains and gripes with the OEM (HP, Acer, etc) and not individual component designers / manufacturers.

Actually, it was AlphaWolf who put that forward. I reduced it to maybe a 1-in-5 kind of impact, if that.

I haven't been thru HP's online ordering process lately, not to mention however many they might have sold in B&M stores in a "what you see is what you get" configuration. Most of the online ordering of laptops I've been through in the last year (remembering I bought a Santa Rosa laptop myself last summer, so I did do quite a bit of online order configuration while researching), the discrete GPU option was exactly that AN OPTION you had to choose, not the default. So that would suggest most people who bought a lappie online with a nv gpu in it have some idea who nvidia is and would associate them with the gpu that presumably their OEM told them failed.

Come to think of it. . . didn't Apple sell a buttload of Macbook Pro's with 8500 in it? I wonder what their experience has been here. What I remember about them is they had very limited configurations where 8500 was packaged in a given configuration rather than an option.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

sure but the other dell laptops haven't spawned 50 page threads regarding them.

I wouldn't be too sure about that...

Whether this is related to the Nvidia issue money has been set aside for or not, I don't know, but there seems to be issues with m1330s.

No debate here. At this point all we can do is speculate, and wait for Dell to comment on the situation (or release a corrective BIOS).

 

[trinibwoy]

That's not what I said. It would be silly not to test their GPUs in an environment that closely reproduces the intended operating environment.

And how do you know that the HP configuration was such an environment?

Given their track record, I think it's rather fair to err on the side of NV's guilt.

Eh? Nvidia has a track record of product failures?

The ODMs/OEMs aren't without blame here. Everyone has their hand in the pie for failing to catch the issue before it became epidemic. It's just NV holds the most responsibility (it is their product that's failing, after all).

They have the most to lose not necessarily the most responsibility. It's their brand and they are at the mercy of everyone between them and the consumer in the value chain. So it's in their best interest to have a lot of oversight on what's going on.

 

[AlphaWolf]

And how do you know that the HP configuration was such an environment?

Nope, but HP didn't announce a 200 million dollar charge to cover failures.

Eh? Nvidia has a track record of product failures?

I don't think that is what he meant. Nvidia hasn't been a company to calmly take blame, let alone if it didn't belong to them.

They have the most to lose not necessarily the most responsibility. It's their brand and they are at the mercy of everyone between them and the consumer in the value chain. So it's in their best interest to have a lot of oversight on what's going on.

No. HP and other manufacturers affected are the ones with the most at stake, its their brand logo printed in 72 point font (or whatever) on the box. It's their support staff that has to handle the problems.

I really have trouble even keeping a straight face responding to this. Can you seriously believe that Nvidia is just handing out money for someone elses mistake? They have shareholders to whom they are responsible, shareholders who just lost half the value of their stocks. Heads would roll, they may anyway, but $200 million isn't the kind of money you throw out as a gesture of goodwill.

 

[trinibwoy]

I really have trouble even keeping a straight face responding to this. Can you seriously believe that Nvidia is just handing out money for someone elses mistake?

I really have trouble understanding how you and others are carrying on about this without a single insight into exactly how it's Nvidia's mistake........

Has HP or anyone else blamed Nvidia for the failures? Let's for once rely on common sense a little bit here and get off the "I love to hate Nvidia train". Has the chip designer ever been blamed for the inadequacy of a cooling solution before?

 

[AlphaWolf]

I really have trouble understanding how you and others are carrying on about this without a single insight into exactly how it's Nvidia's mistake........

Their product failed.

Has HP or anyone else blamed Nvidia for the failures? Let's for once rely on common sense a little bit here and get off the "I love to hate Nvidia train". Has the chip designer ever been blamed for the inadequacy of a cooling solution before?

It's got nothing to do with hating on Nvidia. As far as you would know from Dell, HP and others, everything is fine, there's been no major product recalls or anything that I have heard. All we know is that some of Nvidia's parts are having much higher than expected failure rates and nvidia is going to take a $200 million charge to cover it, although they don't know that there won't be further problems.

If Nvidia gave numbers (heat/TDP/tolerances) that suggested that the cooling solution would be adequate (and it wasn't) and that resulted in the failure, then yes that could be their fault.

 

[trinibwoy]

Yeah that's the only way I could see them bearing the majority of the blame. Doubt we'll ever know for sure though. In the end I guess it doesn't matter cause as you guys say they're eating the 200 mil anyway.

 

[knitecrow]

Come to think of it. . . didn't Apple sell a buttload of Macbook Pro's with 8500 in it?

I've read users complain on mac forms about their geforce 8500 being underclocked. I wonder if that mitigates the problem.

 

[Sxotty]

The ODMs/OEMs aren't without blame here. Everyone has their hand in the pie for failing to catch the issue before it became epidemic. It's just NV holds the most responsibility (it is their product that's failing, after all).

So where did this even come from? When I read HPs site there was a whole host of issues, many having to do with wireless module failing. Why does the GPU kill the wireless? Something seems fishy to me even if no one else is curious.

 

[silent_guy]

Can you seriously believe that Nvidia is just handing out money for someone elses mistake?

If the mistake was made by some of the suppliers of Nvidia, then Nvidia will have to take pay first and try to recoup those losses later (by suing the supplier or asking for compensation or having insurance pay up).

They may not be responsible from a technical point of view, but they have to take financial responsibility vis-a-vis their client. Just like their client (say HP or Dell or whomever) is going to honor their warranty towards consumers: they can't blame Nvidia and ask customers to go to Nvidia.

These kind of indemnification clauses are part of pretty much all major contracts.

 

[Geo]

These kind of indemnification clauses are part of pretty much all major contracts.

I'd agree with that. In insurance there is a term called "subrogation". What it means is "I pay you first, then I go after who I think is *really* to blame".

The thing is, nvidia *did* take the $200M charge. If they really think someone else in the supply chain is to blame, that charge should go *down* over time, not up over the next quarter or two. We shall see.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

So where did this even come from? When I read HPs site there was a whole host of issues, many having to do with wireless module failing. Why does the GPU kill the wireless? Something seems fishy to me even if no one else is curious.

For the last time - companies don't willingly give up huge chunks of profit if they don't have to.

Pardon my curtness, but this is rather frustrating as it seems several people are searching for something that's simply not there.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

And how do you know that the HP configuration was such an environment?

I don't. Why do you assume (by implication) it is the OEM's fault here? I'm an HP Certified Systems Engineer and have serviced HP laptops since the beginning of this decade. Up until now, they had yet to release a SKU with over-heating problems that reached epidemic levels. NV OTOH... I can't count how many over-heated GF6's and 7's I'd seen. Nor how many times I've seen the infamous "reducing clockspeeds/voltages" message from the FW driver due to a poorly-designed HSF. Forward-exhausting fan FTL. Heat should be exhausted outside the case whenever possible.

Eh? Nvidia has a track record of product failures?

I meant they have a track record of saying one thing while doing the opposite

They have the most to lose not necessarily the most responsibility. It's their brand and they are at the mercy of everyone between them and the consumer in the value chain. So it's in their best interest to have a lot of oversight on what's going on.

I never said this was the wrong move on NV's part, just that they wouldn't make such a move if they were completely guilt-less in the matter.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

Nope, but HP didn't announce a 200 million dollar charge to cover failures.

I don't think that is what he meant. Nvidia hasn't been a company to calmly take blame, let alone if it didn't belong to them.

Right on both counts.

No. HP and other manufacturers affected are the ones with the most at stake, its their brand logo printed in 72 point font (or whatever) on the box. It's their support staff that has to handle the problems.

Precisely. It is NV's failing product that is to blame (with some lesser share of the blame belonging to the OEMs/ODMs as well), it is there brand the user sees when they look at the laptop. Most users aren't going to assign blame to the component manufacturer. Did Dell Optiplex GX260/270 owners get mad at the capacitor manufacturers when the caps on their mobos burst? Nope.

I really have trouble even keeping a straight face responding to this. Can you seriously believe that Nvidia is just handing out money for someone elses mistake? They have shareholders to whom they are responsible, shareholders who just lost half the value of their stocks. Heads would roll, they may anyway, but $200 million isn't the kind of money you throw out as a gesture of goodwill.

Indeed. This really is a cut-and-dry situation here. I understand intellectual curiosity, so I don't blame them for wanting to know what the "real cause" is (i.e more precise details), but to think that NV does not hold the majority of the blame here is beyond reason, IMHO.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

I really have trouble understanding how you and others are carrying on about this without a single insight into exactly how it's Nvidia's mistake........

Look at the facts.

NV sells the failing component to the OEMs.
They also supply the TDP specifications and provide thermal guidelines.
They spent $200 million to correct the problem.

I have trouble understanding how an intelligent person like you could come to any other conclusion, unless you're letting emotion dictate the course of your thoughts.

Has HP or anyone else blamed Nvidia for the failures? Let's for once rely on common sense a little bit here and get off the "I love to hate Nvidia train". Has the chip designer ever been blamed for the inadequacy of a cooling solution before?

Stop and think about this for a moment.

Were you an OEM, would you drag the name of the largest of only two discrete GPU manufacturers in the world through the mud when they've already offered to correct the issue?

Of course not.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

So where did this even come from? When I read HPs site there was a whole host of issues, many having to do with wireless module failing. Why does the GPU kill the wireless? Something seems fishy to me even if no one else is curious.

Erratum are listed as seperate issues. Failing wireless modules have ****-all to do with failing Geforces.

Speaking for the record as an HP Certified Systems Engineer (broken record):
wireless problems are user error (accidentally disabling the radio most of the time) or software problems (corrupt driver, undesired configuration) *approximately* 9 times out of 10 in my experience.

 

[silent_guy]

The thing is, nvidia *did* take the $200M charge. If they really think someone else in the supply chain is to blame, that charge should go *down* over time, not up over the next quarter or two. We shall see.

I wouldn't see to much into that just yet. This could be similar to the inventory write-downs that were all the rage after the dot-com crash: remove a whole whack of products from the books as worthless, but still try to sell them over time. It makes your current quarter worse, but makes the following ones look better. But, yes, we'll see...

 

[trinibwoy]

NV sells the failing component to the OEMs.
They also supply the TDP specifications and provide thermal guidelines.

Nvidia doesn't manufacture anything. The "component" is built by third parties as far as I know. They're also not responsible for designing laptop cooling apparatus either.

I have trouble understanding how an intelligent person like you could come to any other conclusion, unless you're letting emotion dictate the course of your thoughts.

Ironically, I feel the same about your position. silent_guy's input above seems to be in line with the way I think I went down. Your entire premise is that taking the $200m charge is an admission of culpability. That's a pretty pedestrian approach to the matter IMO.

Were you an OEM, would you drag the name of the largest of only two discrete GPU manufacturers in the world through the mud when they've already offered to correct the issue?

Exactly. The OEM-Nvidia situation is completely analagous to the Nvidia-Supplier relationship yet you have some weird myopic inability to recognize that.

With respect to the HP wireless issue it's definitely a hardware / manufacturing problem. A friend of mine's mother bought a DV6000 a while ago and got hit with same problem. HP took all the heat although it could have been some other third party's shoddy work to blame.