NVIDIA shows signs ... [2008 - 2017]

[Carl B]

Charlie D is a blight upon the Internet, I just have to say that first and foremost. As I was reading that most recent piece of his, I just couldn't believe it was still going... dude's got an axe to grind, that's for sure.

...anyway NVidia has a big issue with this either way, that is very real. But I think it's better to take the information one bite at a time as it comes out rather than let Charlie-based doomsday scenarios and conspiracy-theories lead the conversation.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

...anyway NVidia has a big issue with this either way, that is very real. But I think it's better to take the information one bite at a time as it comes out rather than let Charlie-based doomsday scenarios and conspiracy-theories lead the conversation.

It's controversy, innit?

Obviously this has come up at the worst time for Nvidia (with a resurgent ATI ready to pounce), so I'm not sure it's such a good idea for Nvidia to engage in one of their arrogant behind-the-scenes blame campaigns and drive their suppliers, AIBs, and OEMs towards the competition.

 

[trinibwoy]

I don't understand the purpose behind such a campaign though. Shareholders aren't going to care who's ultimately to blame as it's Nvidia taking the hit anyway. Is it really just about arrogant finger pointing?

What I find strange is all the uncertainty as to whose fault it is. From what I can gather it's a combination of poor cooling and bad soldering. It should be pretty obvious who the culprit is by now. There has to be some limit on how much responsibility Nvidia has for issues further up the value chain but it seems they are the only one absorbing the blow.

 

[Karoshi]

I don't understand the purpose behind such a campaign though. Shareholders aren't going to care who's ultimately to blame as it's Nvidia taking the hit anyway. Is it really just about arrogant finger pointing?

And corporate image. And stock price. And stock options

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I don't understand the purpose behind such a campaign though. Shareholders aren't going to care who's ultimately to blame as it's Nvidia taking the hit anyway. Is it really just about arrogant finger pointing?

Aggressive mitigation of a falling corporate image with the investors? Maybe the share price fall would have been even worse without it? What's worrying is the "we may have other hidden problems show up" that seems to indicate Nvidia are preparing investors for more bad news on product failures. The market really seemed to want to punish Nvidia for springing this on them with no warning.

What I find strange is all the uncertainty as to whose fault it is. From what I can gather it's a combination of poor cooling and bad soldering. It should be pretty obvious who the culprit is by now. There has to be some limit on how much responsibility Nvidia has for issues further up the value chain but it seems they are the only one absorbing the blow.

Standard response from Nvidia is FUD when in arse-covering mode. I mean, if they are even blaming the way users are using their laptops for problems, it sounds to me like OEMs were running their products beyond, or far too close to the edge of the specs, and they wouldn't be doing that without Nvidia's say-so. It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I'm just truly enjoying the mental image I get of Derek Perez reading Charlie's article.

I'm evil and twisted that way I know, but this time I'm basking in the schadenfreude of the moment.

 

[Geo]

Charlie D thinks there's a lot more to come, and Nvidia is burning bridges:

This is the "sucks to be you" part of the internets, indeed. 90% of everybody (at least 90% of everybody who isn't already in "just a flesh wound!" fanboi denial) piles on in these situations well beyond what the facts support at the time. The internet doesn't react, it overreacts.

 

[AlphaWolf]

While I did manage to learn a couple things from the inq article (which parts are affected), although there was certainly no reason for it to go on and on like that heh.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Nvidia has had it too good for too long, while ATI / AMD have been taking beatings since 2004.

I am, in no way, anti-Nvidia. I love good technology & good products from ANY company, Nvidia included.

Competition is a good thing, and lying or misleading the public, or other companies, is always a bad thing. Whether Nvidia does it, Intel, AMD/ATI, whoever.


I hope to see both Nvidia and AMD/ATI be more honest about everything, roll out strong products. I like what I am seeing in the 48x0 line, and even th GTX 200 line. I don't like how Nvidia named its G80-based-G92 products "GeForce 9xxx", that's misleading. I hope they both move the real-time graphics and visual computing industry forward, in positive ways from now on. Although I am aware there will ALWAYS be problems, misleadings, underhanded tactics, etc. I just hope the better, more honest people within both companies prevail, which can only benefit ....everyone.

 

[trinibwoy]

This is the "sucks to be you" part of the internets, indeed. 90% of everybody (at least 90% of everybody who isn't already in "just a flesh wound!" fanboi denial) piles on in these situations well beyond what the facts support at the time. The internet doesn't react, it overreacts.

From that I infer that you think this issue is more than just a flesh wound and will have consequences further down the road? Is Nvidia's corporate rep really hurting from this? The only real feedback so far has been Charlie's rants and the usual forum flailings.

 

[Rufus]

While I did manage to learn a couple things from the inq article (which parts are affected), although there was certainly no reason for it to go on and on like that heh.

You do realize that the HP lawsuit he links to is from 2006, was completely closed out 3 months ago and relates to NV3x chips. There's no way that's at all relevant to the current situation.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You do realize that the HP lawsuit he links to is from 2006, was completely closed out 3 months ago and relates to NV3x chips. There's no way that's at all relevant to the current situation.

I missed where I was talking about an HP lawsuit.

 

[Geo]

From that I infer that you think this issue is more than just a flesh wound and will have consequences further down the road? Is Nvidia's corporate rep really hurting from this? The only real feedback so far has been Charlie's rants and the usual forum flailings.

Well, any time you have to give up roughly 20%+ of your quarterly income to this kind of issue it's a definite owie.

The bits about suppliers taking retribution on nvidia because of nvidia throwing them under the bus behind the scenes? I don't see it. To whom is it news at this point that nvidia has sharp elbows when they feel cornered? How many years worth of this kind of article can we point at by now? From what I hear, the relationship between TSMC and both AMD/ATI and nvidia is much tighter, long-term, and contractual than this kind of temporary tempest can do much damage to.

Now, did it hurt them with OEMs? Well, probably not too much, because they stood up and took the hit. Peel away all the innuendo on what they are or aren't saying about who is "really" at fault here, and the reality is they took the hit for their customers. Those customers will remember and appreciate that, all else being equal.

Potentially it's a little troublesome right now because it's also combining with a resurgence of their primary competitor. So they are probaby set to lose some market share anyway, and people are likely to point at this issue as part of the reason when there won't really be any way to tell.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Well, any time you have to give up roughly 20%+ of your quarterly income to this kind of issue it's a definite owie.

The bits about suppliers taking retribution on nvidia because of nvidia throwing them under the bus behind the scenes? I don't see it. To whom is it news at this point that nvidia has sharp elbows when they feel cornered? How many years worth of this kind of article can we point at by now? From what I hear, the relationship between TSMC and both AMD/ATI and nvidia is much tighter, long-term, and contractual than this kind of temporary tempest can do much damage to.

I agree. Until lawsuits start flying its not really going to adjust business decisions.

Now, did it hurt them with OEMs? Well, probably not too much, because they stood up and took the hit. Peel away all the innuendo on what they are or aren't saying about who is "really" at fault here, and the reality is they took the hit for their customers. Those customers will remember and appreciate that, all else being equal.

That's assuming they took the full hit. There's going to be costs here to the OEMs in terms of reputation etc that Nvidia can't/won't shelter them from.

Potentially it's a little troublesome right now because it's also combining with a resurgence of their primary competitor. So they are probaby set to lose some market share anyway, and people are likely to point at this issue as part of the reason when there won't really be any way to tell.

It's all going to be additive. Even if OEMs haven't lost confidence in Nvidia parts, some customers may want avoid nvidia parts (if they got stung recently) in their next round of purchases so demand at the consumer end may push OEM contracts also.

 

[Sxotty]

Well I just looked on hp's site and my notebook with nvidia parts isn't in the list of models crapping out so I guess that is a good thing.

Looking at the hp link though it does seem this isn't necessarily Nvidia's fault.

If you actually read the "laptop's" manual when you get it they have all sorts of stuff in there about not using it on your lap, on anything soft, anywhere basically so they can cover their bums. I find it perfectly reasonable that

Nv told them thermal info, they took the info and designed fan algorithms to shed the heat given a perfect scenario, laptop on smooth hard surface with vents free and open. Then of course that isn't the scenario the computer is used in and blamo failures out the wazoo.

Next time hopefully there is more margin for error from all involved.

 

[neliz]

Nv told them thermal info, they took the info and designed fan algorithms to shed the heat given a perfect scenario, laptop on smooth hard surface with vents free and open. Then of course that isn't the scenario the computer is used in and blamo failures out the wazoo.

Next time hopefully there is more margin for error from all involved.

If you made sure your pc was sealed almost airtight, how long do you think it will run?

A decent 17" notebook is cooled by a fan that needs to be as unobtrusive as possible.. people with laptops, you know.. complain.

Actually when my laptops fail due to overheating, it's actually the harddisk failing first (non stop F@H over a holiday) and not the video card... so two weeks non-stop F@H on a laptop isn't considered normal use.

 

[Geo]

That's assuming they took the full hit. There's going to be costs here to the OEMs in terms of reputation etc that Nvidia can't/won't shelter them from.



It's all going to be additive. Even if OEMs haven't lost confidence in Nvidia parts, some customers may want avoid nvidia parts (if they got stung recently) in their next round of purchases so demand at the consumer end may push OEM contracts also.

If you assume that nvidia is covering the full cost of the warranty repair --i.e. new gpu, shipping, and labor, then you try to put dollar figures on that, I'm thinking around $200/per might be reasonable-ish. At which point $200M looks like roughly 1M notebooks. As to what portion of those people swear off nvidia laptop gpus the next time around, some of that will depend on how friendly/painless their warranty experience was, whether their laptop was their primary or secondary computer, and whether there are reasonable options to go a different direction the next time around. On that last, I'm thinking "how successful can AMD be at getting Radeon into more Intel notebooks?" and that question is probably not entirely answered on technical merit. Business relationships and the baleful glare of Intel can figure in there.

I mean, if you are the kind of person who found it worthwhile to be getting a discrete gpu in the first place, odds are you aren't going to want the integrated Intel crap next time either, right?

But yeah, if 1 in 5 "swear the mighty oath" (i.e. "I'll never buy another xxx again!" --we've all sworn that oath at some time with tech, right?), then that's 200,000 next gen lappies going elsewhere.

 

[Geo]

The other thing I've sort of wondered here is if Charlie is right and it is primarily HP notebooks that are the known problem here. . . . how many CEO's or Sr. VP's of Customer Service at other laptop makers woke up to this news and then immediately ordered an audit of their own recent warranty repair histories with an eye to seeing if they can dip their beak into nvidia's pocket, and how deeply, as well. Which might mean they have to come back for a second go at increasing that charge.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

HP bills labor @ $78/hr. The average (wholesale) cost of HP laptop system boards is ~$130.

I never thought being an HP Certified Systems Engineer would come in handy in a GPU discussion

 

[INKster]

And now, for an entirely different angle on desperation theories:

Nvidia to possibly abandon VIA for Intel Atom

Although VIA Technologies and Nvidia entered into an alliance to cooperate in the low-cost PC and MID markets earlier in the year, according to recent reports, Nvidia has used the alliance as a bargaining chip to negotiate with Intel, demanding Intel allow Nvidia's IGP chipsets to enter the Atom platform ecosystem, according to sources at PC makers.

Nvidia's MCP73 IGP chipset only supports single-channel memory and offers relatively low performance compared to current chipsets from both Nvidia and Intel making it a good fit for the Atom platform.

If Intel agrees to let Nvidia's chipset support the Atom platform, Nvidia will then terminate its alliance with VIA. This could impact Taiwan-based chipset makers VIA and Silicon Integrated System (SiS).

Both VIA and Nvidia have refused to comment regarding the speculation.

http://www.digitimes.com/mobos/a20080708PD208.html

Surely Nvidia can't be serious...
Competing with the Atom will be very difficult at the low-end ("Poulsbo" and "Moorestown" will only aggravate things for any direct chipset competitor, with their far more advanced IGP's), unless, of course, they would somehow try to break into the "high-end" Atom platforms (sort of speak).