nVIDIA RSX - Native RGB color space output?

Sorry to ressurect this thread, but I think I have proof that the PS3 natively outputs limited 16-235 color space over RGB. My Samsung LCD supports both Full and Limited, and even if I switch both my TV and PS3 to "Full" range, I still cannot pass Blacker-Than-Black (shades of black from 0-15). If I set output to YCbCr with super-white enabled (which expands the range to 0-255) I CAN pass BTB. So it seems as if the PS3 is indeed just expanding the limited range 16-235 -> 0-255. What I used to test my theory was the Pirates of the Caribbean DVD that has a THX optimizer which includes a brightness test with shades of black below video level (drop shadow behind the THX logo).
 
djskribbles said:
My Samsung LCD supports both Full and Limited, and even if I switch both my TV and PS3 to "Full" range, I still cannot pass Blacker-Than-Black (shades of black from 0-15).
Click to expand...

Right setting for PS3 RGB Full range on Samsung`s TV is HDMI black level NORMAL

djskribbles said:
If I set output to YCbCr with super-white enabled (which expands the range to 0-255) I CAN pass BTB.
Click to expand...

Super-white doesn`t expands the range to 0-255. You can pass BTB, right?

djskribbles said:
So it seems as if the PS3 is indeed just expanding the limited range 16-235 -> 0-255.
Click to expand...

Sure, for video levels (16-235) such as on DVD, BR, etc. and PS3 RGB Full range output.
Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr output is = 0<BTB>16<limited range>235<super-white>255
Full RGB output when playing DVD/BR = 0<expanded limited range>255

BTB and super-white signal are in fact useless for professionally produced video.
 
novcze said:
Super-white doesn`t expands the range to 0-255. You can pass BTB, right?
Click to expand...
Yes, super-white does expand the range to 0-255 - super-white enables x.v.Color, which is 0-255 color space - it doesn't simply allow you to pass WTW. Sony chose some interesting terms for their options. The only way I can pass BTB/WTW with the PS3, is by enabling super-white and setting output to YCbCr.

Sure, for video levels (16-235) such as on DVD, BR, etc. and PS3 RGB Full range output.
Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr output is = 0<BTB>16<limited range>235<super-white>255
Full RGB output when playing DVD/BR = 0<expanded limited range>255

BTB and super-white signal are in fact useless for professionally produced video.
Click to expand...
I agree... pretty much all content as of now is 16-235, so x.v.Color (0-255) is useless until there is material that supports deep color. Deep color gives more available colors, while x.v.Color expands the color space to allow for more colors. You also need a TV capable of x.v.Color/deep color. Being able to see BTB or WTW is just useful for calibrating.

But that wasn't my point, my point was that the PS3 doesn't natively output the Full range over RGB, but maps 16-235 to 0-255 when set to FULL, because its not actually displaying levels of black below 16 or whites above 235.
 
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novcze said:
"In certain cases values 0-15 will also exist on the DVD (for blackness calibration). These signals will normally not be passed to the display unless you turn on Super White on the PS3"

There is no connection between super-white option and blacker-than-black signal pass through.

btw. BTB signal is for brightness (black level) calibration
Click to expand...
Again, yes there is. super-white isn't strictly related to shades of white, it enables x.v.color which is 0-255 color space, so it allows you to see 0-15 and 236-255. I can confirm this because the only way to pass BTB is by enabling super-white.
 
djskribbles said:
Again, yes there is. super-white isn't strictly related to shades of white, it enables x.v.color which is 0-255 color space, so it allows you to see 0-15 and 236-255. I can confirm this because the only way to pass BTB is by enabling super-white.
Click to expand...

Yeah, true. My mistake. I checked this today again (after a year and half) and you are right. Only way to pass BTB is by enabling super-white.
 
manux said:
PS3 can output 0-255 levels just fine. The proof is already in this thread. Check out posts:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1163296&postcount=17
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1167084&postcount=46
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1163465&postcount=22
Click to expand...
Then how come I can't pass BTB (0-15), nor can anyone else? I do recall the first firmware Sony released which included the RGB Full/Limited setting, the PS3 could pass BTB with RGB output, but since the next update, you couldn't.

I'm not sure how you can tell from the images grandmaster posted. The difference in brightness is probably because the PS3 is stretching 16-235 to 0-255, but it's not actually displaying levels below black or levels above white, meaning it's not actually outputting the full range but simply stretching the available colors to a larger color space. I'll try to take some shots with my brightness cranked high.

edit:
This shot is taken with output set to YCbCr and super-white (x.v.Color 0-255) enabled:


If you disable super-white, you cannot pass BTB either.

And this shot is taken with output set to RGB with both my PS3 and TV set to Full (0-255):

The shadow behind the THX logo and the last 3 boxes on the top and bottom seen in the YCbCr shot are below black level (16), and as you can see, it is not present in the RGB shot. Both shots were taken with my TV's brightness cranked to an unusually high setting of 80 to clearly show the drop shadow.
 
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just note djskribbles that HDMI black level on Samsung is better set to NORMAL, than you can see missing boxes in the RGB shot
 
novcze said:
just note djskribbles that HDMI black level on Samsung is better set to NORMAL, than you can see missing boxes in the RGB shot
Click to expand...
I'm aware of that (I've owned two Samsung LCD's, and my current LCD is a Samsung - LN46A650 to be specific). ;)
Normal is 0-255 and Low is 16-235. Again, the shot taken above WAS with my TV set to NORMAL and my PS3 set to FULL, but as you can see, I still cannot pass BTB.

It's not necessarily better to set your Samsung to Normal either, unless your source is outputting the full range. You're better off matching your output levels. So if your source is outputting the full range, then set it to Normal, but if it's outputting Limited range (which most devices do other than PC's) then set it to Low. I'm pretty convinced that the PS3 natively outputs limited range over RGB, so I've always had my PS3 set to Limited and my TV set to Low, and that's what I recommend to everyone who asks me. Unless of course you have a PC monitor or TV that only accepts the FULL range, then you might want to allow the PS3 to map the 16-235 -> 0-255.

Edit: I should note that although this is proof that it maps 16-235->0-255 for DVD/BR Movies, its still quite possible that PS3 games/XMB actually output 0-255... that I can't prove. But since I use my PS3 for BR movies, I'd rather match my output levels and not have the PS3 stretch them (which may introduce banding).
 
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oh I see, that missing black boxes are also BTB. I'm not so familiar with that THX test .... anyway I agree on your conclusion. If your PS3 is more like DVD/BR player, then limited (YCbCr) is better, but games and XMB are 8-bit RGB, so full range RGB is better for them.
 
It's possible, however do we have proof of this? I don't understand why a. Sony doesn't actually use the full range for DVD/BR instead of mapping 16-235->0-255, and b. let us know what games are actually outputting. Or its possible that it varies depending on developers. Considering the PS3 is simply mapping DVD/BR from 16-235 -> 0-255, it makes me wonder if it's doing the same with the XMB and games, and maybe Sony just added this option for people who have PC monitors.
 
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djskribbles said:
It's possible, however do we have proof of this? I don't understand why a. Sony doesn't actually use the full range for DVD/BR instead of mapping 16-235->0-255, and b. let us know what games are actually outputting. Or its possible that it varies depending on developers. Considering the PS3 is simply mapping DVD/BR from 16-235 -> 0-255, it makes me wonder if it's doing the same with the XMB and games, and maybe Sony just added this option for people who have PC monitors.
Click to expand...

Because most blu-rays and dvd's actually have colour range of 16-235 not 0-255(yuv-420)

The pictures from the links in my previous posts prove that ps3 can output 0-255. Just open the non limited range version of pictures in decent image editor and see for your self. The images are direct grabs from what ps3 outputs via hdmi.

edit. Which movies are you using to calibrate? I know that quite many movies actually contain invalid calibration images and there was a lot of confusion because of that in the early blu-ray days...

edit2. Are you passing the picture through amplifier? If you are passing through amplifier then which one? Quite a few amplifiers break the full colour range. Even some of the new ones... So this could also be reason for missing colours.
 
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DVD/BR are encoded as "limited", that's their standard for video levels. Games/XMB have usually 8-bit per channel for final display buffer, so why not use all available variations of bits? PS3 is simply mapping games from 0-255 to 16-235, if output is set to limited RGB. I think someone said that is HDMI transmitter function.
 
manux said:
edit2. Are you passing the picture through amplifier? If you are passing through amplifier then which one? Quite a few amplifiers break the full colour range. Even some of the new ones... So this could also be reason for missing colours.
Click to expand...
I am passing it through my AVR, however it does not change the PQ at all. AFAIK, only some Yamaha's cannot pass BTB/WTW, but my Pioneer does. And regardless, I could not pass BTB/WTW before (I just bought my new Pioneer AVR a few days ago).
The pictures from the links in my previous posts prove that ps3 can output 0-255. Just open the non limited range version of pictures in decent image editor and see for your self. The images are direct grabs from what ps3 outputs via hdmi.
Click to expand...
I don't know how to tell if it's outputting the full range or not from screenshots. :oops:
novcze said:
DVD/BR are encoded as "limited", that's their standard for video levels. Games/XMB have usually 8-bit per channel for final display buffer, so why not use all available variations of bits? PS3 is simply mapping games from 0-255 to 16-235, if output is set to limited RGB. I think someone said that is HDMI transmitter function.
Click to expand...
But how am I passing this THX test through YCbCr with x.v.Color enabled, but I can't with RGB? And again, I cannot pass BTB with x.v.Color disabled, so the super-white option is actually expanding the color space to 0-255.
 
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DVD/BR playback

YCbCr = 16<standard color range for DVD/BR>235
YCbCr + super-white = 0<BTB>16<standard color range for DVD/BR>235<WTW>255
Limited RGB = 16<standard color range for DVD/BR>235
Full RGB = 0<re-mapped standard color range for DVD/BR>255


games/XMB

Full RGB = 0<color range for 8-bit RGB per channel>255
Limited RGB = 16<re-mapped color range for 8-bit RGB per channel>235

btw. what's expanding is not color space but gamut, which is number of unique colors in given color space (RGB or YCbCr)
 
djskribbles said:
But how am I passing this THX test through YCbCr with x.v.Color enabled, but I can't with RGB? And again, I cannot pass BTB with x.v.Color disabled, so the super-white option is actually expanding the color space to 0-255.
Click to expand...

I would bet on this order:
* configuration mistake (so many settings on so many different devices, that it's easy to miss one setting)
* amplifier breaks signal
* tv breaks signal or doesn't support full range via rgb but does support it via YCbCr(not that uncommon, not all interfaces are created equal)

but I would wager heavily that ps3 supports fullrange rgb. unless something got broken on the firmware in which case it's a bug that probably gets fixed in next firmware.
 
novcze said:
DVD/BR playback

YCbCr = 16<standard color range for DVD/BR>235
YCbCr + super-white = 0<BTB>16<standard color range for DVD/BR>235<WTW>255
Limited RGB = 16<standard color range for DVD/BR>235
Full RGB = 0<re-mapped standard color range for DVD/BR>255


games/XMB

Full RGB = 0<color range for 8-bit RGB per channel>255
Limited RGB = 16<re-mapped color range for 8-bit RGB per channel>235

btw. what's expanding is not color space but gamut, which is number of unique colors in given color space (RGB or YCbCr)
Click to expand...
I think novcze is right. So I guess Full range is recommended, IF your display supports it. But for BR/DVD, YCbCr is the recommended output.
 
djskribbles said:
I think novcze is right. So I guess Full range is recommended, IF your display supports it. But for BR/DVD, YCbCr is the recommended output.
Click to expand...

YCbCr will only be used for dvd/blu-ray/avchd by ps3. Games are always on rgb(assuming hdmi). And games can and will utilize the rgb full if tv supports it. What is recommended really depends on the output device, some devices support rgb full/limited and not YCbCr.
 
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