nVidia Project Th-.. Shield (Tegra4)

[Deleted member 13524]

I don't think that as far as Android games are concerned that you need more than 2 CPU cores (+the shadow one), Clock could be tad lower too. On the GPU side with the screen resolution being 720p it could be a bit too much too.
Then there is the RAM, Ok the device runs Android but for what should be the average usage of the device, 1GB should have done.
(...)
With 2 cores, lower clock speed, less ALU on the GPU side, may be they could have passed on active cooling => the thing is "big" and that would have saved them some extra money (lesser battery, no fan).

That would mean:
1) Creating a SoC just for the Shield just to take out 2 A15 cores that can (and will) be powered down most of the time.
2) Cutting back a lot on the longevity of the platform.
3) While saving saving something like $20 total.

Not worth it.

They could have saved on flash storage too as they offer a SD card slot, 8GB is plenty (the device has no camera, Android games are still light, what do you need 16GB for?).

Erm.. when was the last time you installed an Android game?
NOVA 3 is now 3GB, Real Racing 3 is about 2GB, Bard's Tale is 3.5GB, Modern Combat 4 is 2GB, etc.

8GB of non-expandable mass storage would make the Shield DOA.
Unless you think people would buy a Shield to play Where's my Water, Angry Birds and emulators.

They could also have saved on ports, imo hdmi out is useless (the device is supposed to work the other way around, either you consume media/web locally or receive stream from a PC). I think the speaker set-up is overdone too.

HDMI is what makes the device wonderful. A portable console that also connects to the big screen to double as a home console + media player + web browser on the go.
Strong speakers is what makes it better than anything else for gaming.
The difference in gaming experience between my HTC One and any other android phone is enormous thanks to its good speakers on the front.

Anyway to expensive for me to even consider, though if I were more wealthy with Nvidia/steam powered PC, I would see the thing as a blessing.

In the end what you want isn't a Shield, it's a Vita.

 

[liolio]

That would mean:
1) Creating a SoC just for the Shield just to take out 2 A15 cores that can (and will) be powered down most of the time.
2) Cutting back a lot on the longevity of the platform.
3) While saving saving something like $20 total.

Not worth it.

I agree my point was not really about Nvidia only but about how could an Android handheld could be now.
Mediatek dual A15/dual A7 chip could be a really good Android handheld chip.

Erm.. when was the last time you installed an Android game?
NOVA 3 is now 3GB, Real Racing 3 is about 2GB, Bard's Tale is 3.5GB, Modern Combat 4 is 2GB, etc.

Well actually it's been quite a while it seems

8GB of non-expandable mass storage would make the Shield DOA.
Unless you think people would buy a Shield to play Where's my Water, Angry Birds and emulators.

Anyway there is an extension port, I don't want to remove it

HDMI is what makes the device wonderful. A portable console that also connects to the big screen to double as a home console + media player + web browser on the go.

I disagree, it is imho useless, especially with devices like Chrome cast available for cheap.

Strong speakers is what makes it better than anything else for gaming.

I disagree, it is fine in the Shield because it is a pretty high end device. Same as above I would like to see how far you can get ARM+Android on the cheap side of thing.

The difference in gaming experience between my HTC One and any other android phone is enormous thanks to its good speakers on the front.

I don't think it is an important feature (for non high end stuff), when outside one will use headset, and actually even inside it is tempting sounds is just so much better to me. My laptop sounds is not too bad still I almost always use headset.

In the end what you want isn't a Shield, it's a Vita.

No, I think that Nvidia got lot of thing right, the foldable design ala DS is great and should be reliable. It is big but it is a fully functional pad for one PC. It runs Android, so one can keep an eye on his emails, the web, etc. The battery are great 6 hours of gameplay is pretty awesome.
I've nothing against the Shield, but is a high end product, I'm just wondering about what could be done for max 200 bucks or even at price parity with the 3DS.
I hope that Nvidia get some success with wealthy PC gamers and that it gives others manufacturers ideas. It would be great if the streaming part becomes part of Steam Vs being a Nvidia proprietary thing.

Overall I'm excite that gaming is still a driver for innovative approach, I hope Android/Google enter the gaming realm, why not with some sort of "game server", streaming to the TV via chrome cast, or devices like handheld (ala shield), of phones/tablet + pad. There is a great potential here, as Android is everywhere (google has an overwhelming edge over MSFT, SOny and Nintendo with regard to the numbers of devices it can leverage /blend in its strategy).

 

[french toast]

You cant play tegra 4 quality games on a chrome cast.

 

[liolio]

You cant play tegra 4 quality games on a chrome cast.

For now you can't stream games at all to the TV with ChromeCast. Though I think it is something Google should work on. For now even without that functionality I see no purpose in linking such a device to the TV.
It is a gimmick, you have chromecast for media consumption and it works with any android device.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

AnandTech: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7190/nvidia-shield-review-tegra-4-crossroads-pc-mobile-gaming

Tom's Hardware: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-shield-tegra-4-android-geforce-review,3576.html

Just saw the Anandtech one. I was surprised how Adreno 330 is so much faster once you equalize the playing field at the same resolution.

And that is considering Adreno 330 is passively cooled while Tegra 4 (in the Shield) is actively cooled.

The other surprise is that they went for such a slow storage subsystem for what is supposed to be a relatively high end Android gaming device. Although to be fair random reads aren't that bad compared to the competition so perhaps it was a decent compromise in order to reduce the BOM.

After looking at this, I'm not terribly surprised that Nvidia needed to release Project Shield in order to get Tegra 4 into a shipping product. Snapdragon 800 looks pretty competitive considering how well it scores passively cooled compared to the actively cooled Tegra 4.

But performance aside. The final design of Project Shield isn't too bad. I still question whether it has any mass consumer attraction to it, however. As a niche device I can see it doing relatively well. But it's unlikely to sell more than a small fraction of what PS Vita sells. Although I expect it to do well in the first month or two as enthusiasts who have been waiting for it, pick it up.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Just saw the Anandtech one. I was surprised how Adreno 330 is so much faster once you equalize the playing field at the same resolution.

And that is considering Adreno 330 is passively cooled while Tegra 4 (in the Shield) is actively cooled.

I think the active cooling is only there to prevent the SoC from thottling down due to high temperatures.
Just like the active cooler in the OUYA, which uses the exact same SoC and clock speeds as the HTC One X+ smartphone.

It's a gaming device, so maintaining a consistent performance across a 2 hour gaming session is just as important as measuring the system's peak performance in gfxbench/3dmark.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I think the active cooling is only there to prevent the SoC from thottling down due to high temperatures.
Just like the active cooler in the OUYA, which uses the exact same SoC and clock speeds as the HTC One X+ smartphone.

It's a gaming device, so maintaining a consistent performance across a 2 hour gaming session is just as important as measuring the system's peak performance in gfxbench/3dmark.

That's the point though. In theory the Adreno 330 is likely being throttled to not exceed the thermal dissipation limitations of being passively cool, while the Tegra 4 GPU won't be. Hence, surprising that Adreno 330 is still performing so much better than the Tegra 4 GPU in general.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 13524]

That's the point though. In theory the Adreno 330 is likely being throttled to not exceed the thermal dissipation limitations of being passively cool, while the Tegra 4 GPU won't be. Hence, surprising that Adreno 330 is still performing so much better than the Tegra 4 GPU in general.

Regards,
SB

To be honest, I don't think any of the results we see in smartphone reviews are made during long runs. The reviewers probably just pick the smartphone to run the benchmark once/twice and then put it down to annotate results and write stuff.


I think that if someone did an hour-long GPU demanding tests in continuous loop, there would be a significant difference between the first and the last result.

My HTC One heats up quite a bit and pretty fast, since the large aluminum backplate is connected to the SoC through a copper shim.
I can only imagine how hot (or how fast it throttles down) a plastic smartphone will get, with the SoC isolated within.. like the Galaxy S4.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Anandtech are pretty good about ensuring that there aren't usually anomalies due to things like that. So, I'm assuming they would have made note of something like that as they have in other reviews where they've had to do extended runs or multiple runs in order to negate the effects of outliers like that. In their recent review of the new Samsung 840 EVO they go to lengths to point out how the SLC cache chips won't help with larger file transfers despite having a large affect on some of their established benchmark workloads.

And the reviewer definitely really likes the Nvidia Shield, so it's certainly not going to be reviewer bias.

Regards,
SB

 

[ams]

Hence, surprising that Adreno 330 is still performing so much better than the Tegra 4 GPU in general.

Well, that is not really true for the most part.

3DMark graphics score (rendered at the same resolution) is very close between the two platforms: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7190/56779.png (only 1% difference).

GFXBench 2.7 geometry performance (Offscreen 1080p) is very close between the two platforms: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7190/56814.png (only 6% difference).

GFXBench 2.7 T-Rex HD performance (Offscreen 1080p) is very close between the two platforms: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7190/56820.png (only 8% difference).

GFXBench 2.7 Egypt HD performance (Offscreen 1080p) is very close between the two platforms: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7190/56826.png (only 8% difference).

The only significant difference is the Basemark X Offscreen result (where the frames per second are excruciatingly low on the benchmark for all devices tested).

Considering that the Adreno 330 GPU most likely uses much larger die size area compared to the Tegra 4 GPU (in addition to having the benefit of a unified shader architecture), not a bad result at all for NVIDIA (and certainly bodes well for the upcoming Kepler.M in Shield 2 next year).

 

[grokzilla]

Steam Box remote terminal?

Only place Shield makes sense is paired with Steam Box.

Which would require Nvidia innards.

Doesn't look like Steam Box is going to have Nvidia innards.

 

[A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y]

Doesn't look like Steam Box is going to have Nvidia innards.

References?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Well, that is not really true for the most part.

3DMark graphics score (rendered at the same resolution) is very close between the two platforms: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7190/56779.png (only 1% difference).

GFXBench 2.7 geometry performance (Offscreen 1080p) is very close between the two platforms: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7190/56814.png (only 6% difference).

GFXBench 2.7 T-Rex HD performance (Offscreen 1080p) is very close between the two platforms: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7190/56820.png (only 8% difference).

GFXBench 2.7 Egypt HD performance (Offscreen 1080p) is very close between the two platforms: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7190/56826.png (only 8% difference).

The only significant difference is the Basemark X Offscreen result (where the frames per second are excruciatingly low on the benchmark for all devices tested).

Considering that the Adreno 330 GPU most likely uses much larger die size area compared to the Tegra 4 GPU (in addition to having the benefit of a unified shader architecture), not a bad result at all for NVIDIA (and certainly bodes well for the upcoming Kepler.M in Shield 2 next year).

For a chip that is a thermally constrained and passively cooled in a tablet form factor to have its GPU outperforming an actively cooled Tegra 4 GPU with presumably a beefier cooling solution, 8% is quite a large lead.

If they were able to get that performance with Tegra 4 in a passively cooled cased, they would have. I would imagine that the Adreno 330 would likely have an even greater performance lead if Tegra 4 was in a passively cooled tablet enclosure.

BTW - Why do you assume that Adreno 330 takes up much more die space than the GPU in Tegra 4?

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 13524]

References?

I don't think there's any factual reference about that, but Valve has traditionally had much better relations with ATI/AMD than nVidia.

This may have started when Valve was forced to develop an "enhanced" DX8.1 path to Half Life 2 for the Geforce FX line, because of how terrible their DX9 performance was.

 

[ams]

BTW - Why do you assume that Adreno 330 takes up much more die space than the GPU in Tegra 4?

Based on the reported clock operating frequency of Adreno 330 being similar to Adreno 320, and based on the much larger SoC die size of S800 (with Adreno 330) vs. S600/S4Pro (with Adreno 320), it is pretty clear that the Adreno 330 uses significantly more die size area than the T4 GPU: http://techreport.com/r.x/2013_2_26...on_Tegra_4_Tegra_4i/tegra4-efficiency-620.jpg

As for Shield, I have one now, and it is a blast to play around with. Niche device, but oh so much fun too. I have at least one dozen games and several songs installed, and have only paid ~ $20 more on top of the original purchase price.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The S800 has integrated baseband, unlike the S600.

 

[ams]

Yes, but Adreno 330 is still a larger GPU than Adreno 320 and has more shader execution units too (and both of these Adreno GPU's appear to be much larger in die size area than the T4 GPU).

 

[liolio]

It seems that Nvidia is not giving up on the Shield:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/21/nvidia-ceo-jen-hsun-huang-interview-october-2013/

 

[BoardBonobo]

A logan based Shield is higher up on my list of toys to buy. The current Tegra4 doesn't really offer much over the Snapdragon used by my phone, in gaming terms anyway.

 

[scooby_dooby]

A logan based Shield is higher up on my list of toys to buy. The current Tegra4 doesn't really offer much over the Snapdragon used by my phone, in gaming terms anyway.

As a Shield owner, just wanted to chime in and say I freakin LOVE this thing.

The form factor is killer, it's just like holding an Xbox controller in your hand. Triggers feel great, Thumbsticks are perfect, the only complaint I have is the weight, this bitch is heavy!

Since there was much debate over the use cases, I'll list mine:

1. ROMS. I've loaded this up with SNES, Genesis and NES roms, and am absolutely loving the ability to play all these old games, with a great controller. I can also enter Game Genie codes as well, which is super fun. IMO, this is almost worth the price of admission and everything else is a bonus.

2. Video Player. I use this thing all over the house as a video player. It's perfect for when you're layin in bed, or having a bath, you just prop it up and it plays like a boss. The battery life is extremely good, though it does have a lengthy charge time.

3. Streaming from PC. This is my least used feature, but still very cool, playing Borderlands 2 on a handheld is pretty damn rad any way you slice it.

It makes a very capable device for checking emails as well, because of how they've mapped the cursor to the controller buttons, it's very easy to select and click UI buttons within Android. You can forget about writing emails though, entering text on this thing is pretty unwieldy, so anything involving that will be a non-starter.