NPD October 2009
- Thread starter RobertR1
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I'm sure the game has already turned a profit for Naughty Dog, and Sony has probably thrown more than enough money their way to recoup the losses.
The game will have legs, just like the first. I'd expect it to sell well around 2 Million world wide.
I think people are too interested in the meg-hit numbers that games like GTA IV, MW2, and Halo franchises put up, even though it's pretty well established that they aren't the best games you can get.
Not every game has to turn millions on top of millions of copies to be successful.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
The surprise isn't that Borderlands didn't sell as much as X360. It's that not only did it fail to match a 2-1 which most multiplatform shooters seem to do better than in the first month. Ratios tend to diverge after the first month.
It's that it was outsold nearly 4-1. And this for a title where the port wasn't even a bad port. As said obviously UC2 probably took some sales from it. But considering how many titles charted on X360 this month, sales were also taken from the X360 version.
I'm left scratching my head on this one.
Regards,
SB
(Emphasis mine).
That has to be one of the funniest things I have ever read on B3D.
Coming from someone whose favorite games include Mario Kart, Battlefield, Madden, and Battlezone I don't think your statement is established at all. Not to dismiss that some good, even great, games get outsold by pretty bad games, I have never seen any evidence that as a general consensus that what you said is true outside your opinion.
I'd argue that it's a bit beyond the usual competition for time and dollars between the two games. Borderlands was more specifically the multiplayer game of the moment for Xbox 360 owners, post-ODST, pre-MW2. On the PS3 though, Uncharted 2 was the game that soaked up most of the MP dabblers.
I don't see it as much of a single-player game. Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's what I've gathered following the usual sources.
(Emphasis mine).
That has to be one of the funniest things I have ever read on B3D.
Coming from someone whose favorite games include Mario Kart, Battlefield, Madden, and Battlezone I don't think your statement is established at all. Not to dismiss that some good, even great, games get outsold by pretty bad games, I have never seen any evidence that as a general consensus that what you said is true outside your opinion.
My point wasn't that they were bad games. My point was that their sales numbers do not equate to the quality of the title or the consumer satisfaction.
GTA IV sold like gangbusters, but many gamers (note: general impressions from discussions on message boards, with coworkers, and friends) feel that it was a let down.
Basically, one should not say that sales = quality.
That said, front loaded sales are important, but not the end of the world. Naughty Dog will go on to see more sales of U2 and it will work out for them, just like Uncharted 1 did.
djskribbles
Legend
I think the timing had something to do with it. Borderlands had Uncharted 2 to compete with. 360 had Forza and ODST, but ODST was already out a month and Forza didn't come out until later. If it would've been released on a slow month for both systems, I think the ratio would've been what we typically see from MP games.
Well... I may get Borderlands someday, not now. I haven't even bought CoD -- The FPS -- yet. Too tied up with existing game(s). Uncharted 2 and Demon's Souls certainly messed up my tight schedule quite a bit.
We may want to stretch the horizon longer. It's not the first time a PS3 game has long legs. It is also possible that older gamers are not as impulse buy as younger ones. But we'll get there _if_ the game is worth its salt. Busy people also want to relax and have fun. Nonetheless, some PS3 gamers may not like Borderlands as much as the 360 gamers who bought Borderlands. There are other choices on a different platform.
We may want to stretch the horizon longer. It's not the first time a PS3 game has long legs. It is also possible that older gamers are not as impulse buy as younger ones. But we'll get there _if_ the game is worth its salt.
Busy people also want to relax and have fun. Nonetheless, some PS3 gamers may not like Borderlands as much as the 360 gamers who bought Borderlands. There are other choices on a different platform.I hear you, don't disagree in principle, but what you said was what I was responding to.
It isn't well established.
And there are strong arguements that all 3 are some of the best games you can get. Take MW2. It sold crazy not because of marketing and not because of reviews (I didn't see any pre-11.10.09 reviews). MW2 sold well because consumers loooooved MW1. The CoD franchise has slowly grown in popularity as consumers get exposed to it and their design choices with MW1 set it apart in the minds of many consumers and the press (RPG-lite leveling, mechanics, story telling, online options and rewards, story setting, etc) and at the end of the day what people heard of MW2 appealed to consumers.
You may hate, seeth, and loath the game. IW may have personally pissed in your oatmeal. But that doesn't mean consumers in general don't think MW2 is one of the best games on the market. What I am hearing from people who bought it is overwhelmingly positive. The press also things it is pretty awesome.
That doesn't mean little johnny couldn't be let down (see PC gamers). It doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to your tastes in general (see RPG lovers) and particular FPS fans.
But what isn't established--not by a longshot--is that MW2 isn't one of the best games you can buy.
Unless you are choosing your self-selecting pool of friends and forum visitors. Which says a lot more about who you hang with than any established consensus about the game.
I think it is pretty established MW2 and other big titles people like & buy and well received by the press tweak the noses of fans who prefer lower-selling titles.
While I may think that (I even qualified it by what I think!), what follows (that it is established) isn't a reasonable conclusion unless it is established. Maybe it can be, maybe it cannot be, but saying it doesn't make it so.
What was written earlier sounds like more sour grapes than anything "established."
But that doesn't change the fact UC2, as well, is
1a) One of the most highly rated games ever
2a) Sold very well on the PS3 relative to other titles
3a) Has great word of mouth among people who have played it
But pitting it against GTAIV is doesn't follow:
1b) One of the most highly rated games ever
2b) Sold amazingly well on the PS3
3b) Has great word of mouth among people who have played it
Your group agrees with majority 3a but disagrees with the majority 3b--but that still doesn't make your opinion remotely established.
Not including marketing (who knows how to parse that between platform and title marketing on these titles...) yeah, it looks like UC2 will be profitable--and more importantly has the potential to continue growing in consumer awareness much like CoD did from CoD1 => CoD2 => CoD4 => MW2. It was CoD2 that really stuck out on the consoles that hooked an audiance and some shifts and evolution in gameplay (not so much technology) in CoD4 as well as going with a more popular setting propelled it over the top and went blow for blow with Halo 3 on the 360 in 2007 (impressive feet).
The skies the limits for UC and ND as long as they are willing to make the right gambles. IW made a LOT of gambles with CoD4 that departed from CoD2. ND may need to make similar significant departures to gain that sort of acceptance.
One thing right off the top of the head: The MP, which is really important to why consumers are getting CoD games, is just miles ahead in terms of consumer appeal. ND needs to find that magic hook (like IW did in MW1) and use it to propel it from its current sales position. MP cannot be an axillary part of the game that fails to significantly innovate if in the minds of consumers it wants to be propelled to the status CoD has right now.
And that is only my opinion. GTAIV is primarily a SP hook, but I don't know many linear story-chapter based SP games (like Halo, CoD, etc) that are able to do it without an even strong MP component. I could be mistaken but other huge sellers that appeal to consumers are sandbox (like GTA), music (GH), alternative (Wii Fit), etc. I am not sure making an even better (!!) SP chapter based Uncharted 3 will propel sales to 5M day-1 like CoD4 MW2.
But that is all my opinion and observation--not established consensus or fact.
You'll need to present some funky research to back up that point that it is established they aren't the best. Certainly sales and metacritic scores are against you. Is there a nice consumer poll you can point us to?
I clarified my point already. I didn't word it the best, did you skim over my last post?
I worded it poorly. My point wasn't that they are bad games, rather, I wanted to emphasize that having excellent sales is not the only benchmark for an excellent game.
I also don't take many reviews at anything more than face value. With the ever increasing number of exlcusive reviews / reveals / previews, etc...it's more and more apparent that publishers are in bed with the media. Afterall, the enthusiast press for videogames isn't exactly a thriving market right now, they need to get their money from somewhere, and that comes in advertising dollars and exclusive content. That's neither here nor there. I just don't think the only metric you can use by which to measure a great game should be sales alone, or by "metacritic" alone. There are plenty of games that didn't get their fair shake from reviewers, and as a result, didn't enjoy massive success. Likewise, there are also plenty of titles that did enjoy critical acclaim, but did not enjoy massive success.
To me, reading B3D, NeoGAF, talking to Friends and Coworkers on XBL / PSN is how I generally determine the "worth" of a game prior to purchasing it.
I don't want to get into semantics or a book war here though, as it's pretty off topic and isn't applicable to the discussion topic.
I don't usually participate in monthly sales thread for similar reasons Joshua posted.
BUT this time, it makes me realize that there MIGHT be a Gaming God (Cue mods to start a "Name our God" thread.)
Demon's Souls sales:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=26079
It's in the [strike]September[/strike]October 2009 chart, ranked 11 (150K-156K copies), above Brutal Legend (360) but below FIFA (360)... for a "difficult" game with very little/late marketing.
With the amount of positive word of mouth going on, I suspect the game will remain in more gamers' mind longer too (Legs please !)
Actually... that's all I care about. [Wave goodbye to all]
EDIT: The game may be able to rank higher if it didn't go out-of-stock in some areas.
BUT this time, it makes me realize that there MIGHT be a Gaming God (Cue mods to start a "Name our God" thread.
)Demon's Souls sales:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=26079
It's in the [strike]September[/strike]October 2009 chart, ranked 11 (150K-156K copies), above Brutal Legend (360) but below FIFA (360)... for a "difficult" game with very little/late marketing.
With the amount of positive word of mouth going on, I suspect the game will remain in more gamers' mind longer too (Legs please !)
Actually... that's all I care about. [Wave goodbye to all]
EDIT: The game may be able to rank higher if it didn't go out-of-stock in some areas.
borderlands becomes the title with the best known ratio, knocking devil may cry off its perch
If they were then the best 3 games this generation (and nearly of alltime) are
wii play
wii fit
mario kart wii
Well I suppose some ppl think that they are the 3 best
BTW uncharted2 sold to 5.93% so not so shabby as it appears
If they were then the best 3 games this generation (and nearly of alltime) are
wii play
wii fit
mario kart wii
Well I suppose some ppl think that they are the 3 best
I bet a random survey of 10,000 people who plays games (any games--kids, moms, teen boys, etc) across the globe and they were questioned after getting to sample the best rated and best selling games I would take a stab and say those titles would do ok :smile:
Not that I like any of them and not to say some games are not better than others (I love some games that I know are NOT the best games in their market/genre because certain aspects appeal to me individually).
What criteria would you use to decide what is and isn't well established?
I agree. McDonald sell more burgers than just about anyone in the world but I doubt anyone here would call them some of the best burgers ever produced.
But, GTA, Halo and MW2 aren't McDonald's hamburgers and the reason those titles show such high level of sales is due the ability of those series as a whole to produce quality titles over time.
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
Make it 10,000 kids and it'd probably be almost unanimous that Mario Kart Wii is the best game ever for current gen consoles.
Target small families and Wii Fit suddenly has a shot at greatest game of this gen.
Something else forumite's don't usually take into account. There's various market segments that are targetted and despite the wide age spread even on this forum, we're still a rather narrow representation of the overall market. I don't see many kids aged 5-10 here for example, or many married women with kids.
So I can't help but agree, that there's absolutely no way to establish whether a good selling game is a great game or not. It's certainly a great game to those who bought it, or it wouldn't sell in those numbers.
Regards,
SB
you could also question 10,000 ppl who listen to music
who was/is the better musician
miley cyrus or beethoven
and I betcha miley would do OK as well
whereas if u asked anyone who was educated about music there would be only one choice
The examples you gave earlier concerning FM3 and MK Wii are perfect examples of why your example above is very, very flawed. Give a 5yo a controller with those two games and what is "better" isn't as clear cut as you think. This is the same reason why there is genuine disagreement about what makes a good movie.
If the criteria is engagement, entertainment, and value someone derives from a product more features, complexity, and technicalities don't make it better. Different, yes, but not better.
How good a game is is not determined by the engine it uses--the quality of a game is determined by the experience is gives users. A good engine with all the bells and whistles means less design constraints and freedom of expression, but it surely does not mean a better game.
Unless we all agree Crysis is the best game ever made up until this point in time.
I suppose a fair number of the people reading this had to supress their urge to instantly type "BUT OF COURSE".
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