Nintendo GOing Forward.

[Grall]

@Goodtwin Don't forget the nightmare reports coming out of Retro over the pains of developing the original Metroid Prime game. One dev, who quit the studio after the game was completed, spoke in an interview about Shigsy ranting at the studio devs alledgedly for a quarter hour, in japanese, and the translator then summarizing it all as "he's very upset".

I'm sure Nintendo Japan has never really been all that easy to deal with for foreign studios. Maybe except for Rare, I dunno. They seemed to be able to get along well for quite a few years, maybe the ideology of both companies aligned well, considering they both produced similar types of games. *shrug*

 

[joker454]

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/...and-awful-working-conditions-killed-wii-game/
That illustrates pretty well my view of the issues the company faces, it does no go with the best partners based on pretty irrational (lets say...) basics.

A buddy of mine worked there at the time on that very game at Nintendo USA in Redmond. The way the "gaijin" were treated there made him so disgusted and disillusioned with the gaming industry that he left it completely after that gig. They really could care less what Americans thought at that company, you were basically expected to shut up and do what your Japanese superiors told you. It was really bad, I'm kinda surprised they still make games there but maybe they have since cleaned up their act and joined the modern age, leaving dumb prejudice and nationalism aside. At least I hope so.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Management "would not listen to the other team members who were not Japanese."

That pretty much sums up how Japan works. I’ve been working in Japan for three years now and this is exactly how it is. You can say something is not going to work, you can prove that it’s not going to work, you can explain them how it should be done and why that will work and they will all nod yes yes and tell you that’s a great idea and that you are right but the moment you walk out of the room they will just continue with what they’ve been doing. Or they will go with some idea that a Japanese guy will have thought up on the spot, usually obviously flawed, but none of that matters.


In the mind of the Japanese the Japanese know best. Period. .


In three years I have literally never heard anybody say well we should have though better about this or we could have improved this. Nope, it’s the fault of a partner and if there is nobody else to blame nobody speaks about problems and just ignore them for as long as possible.

 

[fehu]

I was almost sure that responsibility was a pillar of the jap's culture

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That pretty much sums up how Japan works. I’ve been working in Japan for three years now and this is exactly how it is. You can say something is not going to work, you can prove that it’s not going to work, you can explain them how it should be done and why that will work and they will all nod yes yes and tell you that’s a great idea and that you are right but the moment you walk out of the room they will just continue with what they’ve been doing.

This mirrors my, somewhat dated, experience. It takes a monumental fall from grace (like Sony) for management to question conventional wisdom.

 

[wco81]

Well Sony did get rid of Kutaragi and they did hire Stringer as CEO, a gaijin.

Then chose Hirai, who spent a big part of his career overseas, to succeed him.

 

[RDGoodla]

I wonder what their first mobile game is. It must show much better quality than current mobile games as well as be suitable for a touch screen (maybe platformer game?).

 

[Rikimaru]

I wonder what their first mobile game is. It must show much better quality than current mobile games as well as be suitable for a touch screen (maybe platformer game?).

Not a platformer game.
Tomodachi Life, Animal Crossing Happy Home Designer, etc.

 

[liolio]

I discarded many posts in a row wrt what NIntendo could do or not because ultimately it is pointless. The release of the new 3DS is all we need to know, the jump from the Gamecube to the Wii was minimal but at least the GC was not an antiquated system, whereas looking at the 3DS...

I actually put my bet on this, first NIntendo no matter the "bright" new 3DS won't manage to make money in any significant amount till the NX launches. Secondly NX is going to be a failure, a massive one.
There is no way they could deliver a coherent vision for handhled+home console when they just released a new handheld. Imho the management and Nintendo HQ Japan played their last good card a while ago, they are clueless about what to do and how (at this point one may even question NIntendo ability to source cheap component, are they doing it on nationalistic basis? Or following old habits or partners? Who Knows I suspect nobody over there knows what a serious audit is...). The same guys spoke about selling thing to older people a year ago. they lost it it would not surprise that they went to see AMD with a sucky, hardly finalized concept and spent what by any mean is an enormous amount of money. No offense to AMD lovers but AMD products do not cut it in the low power realm, newer version of their product are unproven, have not been reviewed either. They are also big, etc. Not a clever choice, I read the "AMD can use ARM CPU, etc", but what is the point to go with AMD?
So yes I think they won't be able to hide the incompetencies any longer and NX is going to be a hell of a disaster, it is already messy NX replaces both the 3DS and the Wii U but the focus is on home console first (their weakess market and the toughest one...), sounds like an empty promise or not completely finalized concept.

 

[Goodtwin]

I discarded many posts in a row wrt what NIntendo could do or not because ultimately it is pointless. The release of the new 3DS is all we need to know, the jump from the Gamecube to the Wii was minimal but at least the GC was not an antiquated system, whereas looking at the 3DS...

I actually put my bet on this, first NIntendo no matter the "bright" new 3DS won't manage to make money in any significant amount till the NX launches. Secondly NX is going to be a failure, a massive one.
There is no way they could deliver a coherent vision for handhled+home console when they just released a new handheld. Imho the management and Nintendo HQ Japan played their last good card a while ago, they are clueless about what to do and how (at this point one may even question NIntendo ability to source cheap component, are they doing it on nationalistic basis? Or following old habits or partners? Who Knows I suspect nobody over there knows what a serious audit is...). The same guys spoke about selling thing to older people a year ago. they lost it it would not surprise that they went to see AMD with a sucky, hardly finalized concept and spent what by any mean is an enormous amount of money. No offense to AMD lovers but AMD products do not cut it in the low power realm, newer version of their product are unproven, have not been reviewed either. They are also big, etc. Not a clever choice, I read the "AMD can use ARM CPU, etc", but what is the point to go with AMD?
So yes I think they won't be able to hide the incompetencies any longer and NX is going to be a hell of a disaster, it is already messy NX replaces both the 3DS and the Wii U but the focus is on home console first (their weakess market and the toughest one...), sounds like an empty promise or not completely finalized concept.

The New 3DS is just a simple revision with their current handheld. The DS saw multiple revisions in a similar manner leading up to the release of the 3DS. I don't feel that the New 3DS hindered development or progress of NX in any way. The 3DS is still on track to sell upwards of 70 million units. I don't understand the mentality that Nintendo has consistently produced failing products, they haven't. The Wii U is a commercial failure, but the 3DS is not, and the two products prior to that, the Wii and DS, were huge successes. Nintendo has more successes than failures, and just because you don't personally like their hardware design choices doesn't make them incompetent. Its ok to not like the product they offer, but you cant dismiss their successes in the past 15 years as being nothing more than dumb luck simply because you want to believe they are a bunch of fools. One of Nintendo's biggest weaknesses as of late has been its marketing department. When they rolled out Wii U, the marketing was garbage.

 

[liolio]

The New 3DS is just a simple revision with their current handheld. The DS saw multiple revisions in a similar manner leading up to the release of the 3DS. I don't feel that the New 3DS hindered development or progress of NX in any way.

It is more than a simple revision, it has a faster CPU, more ram, the right stick (C-stick) is standard. They know really well it is a new products as they are to focus on home side of Nx first. As for the 3DS sales if Nintendo had 70 millions active user base they would not be in the grey, they manage to sell their fans multiple times the same devices. It does not hinder the development of something else though it makes it that they can't really "betray" their fans and release something completely new within one year or one year and a half. It might not hinder anything but it may have cost money it is a significant upgrade and Nintendo did not gave up on its tiered approach to the market so they invested money on 2 devices, when was the last time they claimed awesome late figures? What did they gained from splitting their user base? Nothing they are still in the grey, with a device (or 2) that prevents a more timely reaction on the handheld market.
The market (of active users) for handheld is not growing because the cost is too high for anybody but fans, even the 2DS is f****g too expensive, damned they are asking 129$ for it (you can find better deal but that is true for many (if not any) products nowadays). For the ref the Acer Iconia Tab sell 99$ (79 Euros here in France but it is a deal), that is a 7" 1280x800 screen, 1 GB of RAM, a Bay Trail processor, a 3400 mAh battery, 8 GB of storage. You can find the archos 101d neon at 99 euros, that is a 10.1 1024x600 MVA screen, 1 GB or RAM, a Mediatek MTK 8127, a 4000 mAh battery, 8 GB (some discounters are selling the 16 GB at the same price). Asus Memopad 7 are selling without rebate 129 Euro, the same price as the 2DS.

I want Nintendo to do something nice, too much in fact as I'm not objective about what to expect. Looking at what they are doing and at their last products is all one needs to do to see that nothing has changed or will in Mario Land, they are spiralling down and I bet on a crash landing.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Nintendo are very much an innovative company, it’s just they’re not always successful. When I first heard about the Wii and its controller I remember thinking that it sounded awful and wouldn’t sell, I seem to recall that being the general consensus in the gaming community around that time. It goes to show how wrong we can all be sometimes. None of us are performing any real market analysis on what people want and expect from a console, but I’d imagine most ‘casual’ gamers couldn’t care less for ‘more graphics’.

We’re talking about a company that has had some of the most successful consoles ever made – everyone knows what a Nintendo is. Yes, their last machine has been an abject failure compared to its predecessor, but who knows, the NX might be another huge seller even if it doesn’t please us techy types.

I guess I’ll wait and see. I’d like it to have some grunt behind it, only I can’t see Nintendo doing it. Maybe they’ll have some incredible controller that’s only possible on their custom machine – who knows?

 

[Goodtwin]

Nintendo fans upgrading their Nintendo handheld is nothing new, so I don't see your point. The Gameboy was replaced by the Gameboy pocket, and then the Gameboy Color came out, and then the Gameboy Advance not to many years later, and then the we saw the Gameboy Advance SP. Lots of different DS models, and yes, many of these new models did see faster processors and memory upgrades. I don't think these minor revisions hurt them at all.

Both PSP and Vita were far superior technically than either the DS or 3DS, but that didn't stop Nintendo from doing very well. Did a few poor decisions sink Sony with the PS3 and Vita? Nope, lets not overreact to one failed product.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

When I first heard about the Wii and its controller I remember thinking that it sounded awful and wouldn’t sell, I seem to recall that being the general consensus in the gaming community around that time.

I challenge that. I recall people saying the hardware was inadequate, it wouldn't sell to the gaming populace, and it'd probably be a gimmick. The massive spike and short life saw that pan out. The 'it'll never work' assertion wasn't strong that I recall, because it was such an unknown. Even Nintendo knew it was an unknown and couldn't be sure what'd happen.

Those same people then evaluated Wii U and said it'd go nowhere, neither to core gamers nor Nintendo's Wii audience, and were also right for the obvious reasons. Even when a few months after Wii U's launch and some Nintendo enthusiasts were adamant sales were great, the writing was on the clearly on the wall for the mainstream internet gamer (though not in stone at that point if N. could have turned it around).

I don't really recall a consensus that didn't play out. Closest I can think of is assumptions PS3 would own the market again, but that was before the crazy price-tag. Once we heard the price and Sony's crazy PR, it was obvious sales would be limited.

 

[liolio]

Nintendo fans upgrading their Nintendo handheld is nothing new, so I don't see your point. The Gameboy was replaced by the Gameboy pocket, and then the Gameboy Color came out, and then the Gameboy Advance not to many years later, and then the we saw the Gameboy Advance SP. Lots of different DS models, and yes, many of these new models did see faster processors and memory upgrades. I don't think these minor revisions hurt them at all.

I did not say hurt them, and it is not to play on words, I said that it prevents them to do a more radical move on that market and launch something really new. I said that redesigning the std and xl have taken time and money. I said that they are not running around shooting how well those new SKUs are selling.
INdeed looking at their history, Nintendo may want those new models to last for a good while which is why I disagree with their choice of launching a significantly improved 3DS now (~).

Both PSP and Vita were far superior technically than either the DS or 3DS, but that didn't stop Nintendo from doing very well. Did a few poor decisions sink Sony with the PS3 and Vita? Nope, lets not overreact to one failed product.

That has nothing to do with what I say, Nintendo sells systems with crappy specs, supposedly cheap to produce, they are selling games too, supposedly they have a 70 millions user base (far from it imho) => it does not translate into profit which is why I question their choices overall, there ability to source cheap parts and to make sensible design choices.
It is a bit more than one product, the 3DS struggled badly at launch and lose them money, so did the Wii U. They have been pretty late reacting to the loss of stamina of the Wii too. During the whole time, when piling money they made little effort to develop a decent network infrastructure, leverage their IP in the mobile world / to be pro-active.
The Wii was a great bet, still a bet. 3D for the first iteration of the 3DS, not that much. One may also question the choice to maintain 2 screens (and its overall overhead) instead of adopting a bigger one ala PSP.

They got their games right that is what keep their fans in, not the hardware (or overall environment).

 

[liolio]

I challenge that. I recall people saying the hardware was inadequate, it wouldn't sell to the gaming populace, and it'd probably be a gimmick. The massive spike and short life saw that pan out. The 'it'll never work' assertion wasn't strong that I recall, because it was such an unknown. Even Nintendo knew it was an unknown and couldn't be sure what'd happen.

Those same people then evaluated Wii U and said it'd go nowhere, neither to core gamers nor Nintendo's Wii audience, and were also right for the obvious reasons. Even when a few months after Wii U's launch and some Nintendo enthusiasts were adamant sales were great, the writing was on the clearly on the wall for the mainstream internet gamer (though not in stone at that point if N. could have turned it around).

I don't really recall a consensus that didn't play out. Closest I can think of is assumptions PS3 would own the market again, but that was before the crazy price-tag. Once we heard the price and Sony's crazy PR, it was obvious sales would be limited.

Nintendo innovates while being extremely conservative. Executives took the right decision when they decide to avoid "direct" confrontation with MSFT and SOny in the living room. They tried things with input but actually wrt hardware... it is a completely different story with the Wii U still relating to the old Gamecube. On the handheld side it (gimmick aside) Nintendo tried many things and since the DS the design of their handheld has been locked down. I don't know when changed in leadership happened I wonder if their could be correlations, too lazy to dig right now.

EDIT
Actually it is easy to track down lots of things to Iwata, got there in 2002, after the GC. THe Gameboy advance may have been in the pipe already too. He locked NIntendo hardware like that never happened before.
I checked the DS sales most of it happened from the DSi onward. Once DS design was settled upon it never was reconsidered (no matter the slow start), they made it work or games did more precisely.
I could think that the Gameboy advanced SP and the Gamecube were the last Nintendo great designs. DS design choices made it so Nintendo was extremely late to adopt bigger screen and wider screen format ratio. Not everything was bad like the resistive screen. But the relevant point is that Iwata does not seem the type of guy that really moves forward.
I will agree with Patcher he is a bad CEO and while he is in charge NIntendo is going nowhere.
EDIT actually bad is more than inappropriate I would say he is a guy that seems to enjoying building on the pass, pushing idea to their max, open neought ot wonder a round a little. A perfect guy to manage a period a steady growth (and making it happen). But now we kind of reached the hockey cross of the curve, we are in a shifty environment, you want a different type of profile taking charge more akin to reading trends, etc. You can't get stuck on an idea especially when as a company you are lucky enough so it takes more than a couples of bullets to take you down.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm not challenging the 'innovative' argument. Only the views of gamers being wrong. I'll edit my post to make it clearer.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

You also mention people being unconvinced. So I guess you're only questioning the sales part of my post?

My point was more that we shouldn't rule out Nintendo just yet, they just might cause another gaming earthquake. They have had a lot of success in the past, what's to say it won't happen again?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm saying that the predictions of the gaming populace consensus seems to me to match what happens. If the gaming populace says, "this idea sucks," then it probably has no future. If that populace says, "seems gimmicky to me," then it might gain traction as a niche but won't create a paradigm shift in gaming nor a long-term future (we didn't all change to motion controls post-Wii). If Nintendo want to be successful, they need a product that makes that populace say, "cool, I want one!"

 

[Rodéric]

I'm saying that the predictions of the gaming populace consensus seems to me to match what happens. If the gaming populace says, "this idea sucks," then it probably has no future. If that populace says, "seems gimmicky to me," then it might gain traction as a niche but won't create a paradigm shift in gaming nor a long-term future (we didn't all change to motion controls post-Wii). If Nintendo want to be successful, they need a product that makes that populace say, "cool, I want one!"

Captain Obvious training bearing fruit ?