Nintendo 3DS hardware thread

[Xenus]

Yeah I tried it a while back and any movement from side to side really messes with the effect. I think that's it's biggest issue.

 

[theLonely1]

There a two important graphical issues with RE:Mercenaries:

- Frame Animations of far away enemies drop considerably.

- Dithering.

Which hardware issues can be causing this?

 

[Arun]

- Frame Animations of far away enemies drop considerably.

CPU performance.

 

[Exophase]

- Dithering.

The LCD could be 18bpp and the graphics could be 16bpp - any combination of these. It's possible that it doesn't support 24bpp color output altogether but I doubt that, it's probably just a matter of saving bandwidth. PICA200 is not a tiler so you'll see dithering stack up on read-modify-write to the framebuffer, including alpha blending and anything multi-pass.

Dithering can look very good if you're high enough resolution. At 400x240 it doesn't look quite so subtle, as is evident in all the PS1 games that use it and aren't that much lower resolution.

 

[theLonely1]

Ishihara also supposedly says something about the 3DS having a second CPU and it having been unlocked for developers through a new firmware update. Supposedly, the CPU runs independently of the main one.

From GAF.

 

[Brad Grenz]

It was always rumored to have 2 CPUs. Weird that they wouldn't have been letting devs use one, though.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Info about it having an ARM11 dual core has been established for some time, but having one of them locked sounds simply ridiculous as the console is already weak with both CPUs on (assuming the ~266MHz clock speeds).

Moreover, it's from a comment that someone made to the adriasang news post (someone who read the famicom interview, suposedly).


There's also someone in that thread claiming the PICA200 to be clocked at 268MHz. I don't really know where it comes from (something about an "Iwata asks" session claiming the graphics power having been doubled?), but it could also affect future titles.

 

[darkblu]

It was always rumored to have 2 CPUs. Weird that they wouldn't have been letting devs use one, though.

Would not have been the first handheld with such a restriction.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Would not have been the first handheld with such a restriction.

Was the PSP restricted?!

Or could you be talking about the ARM7 in the DS?

 

[Exophase]

Yes, the PSP was restricted. No user/game code on the Media Engine CPU. The Vita will have a core locked down too, although it's not as big of a problem when there are four of them.

I heard earlier from another developer that one of ARM11s was restricted as well. He also confirmed the clock speed being around ~250-300MHz like previously revealed (I believe he said 283MHz). He wasn't very impressed with the GPU either.

Maybe in this new firmware they have an API for running sandboxed user tasks on the second core. I would expect they aren't just letting developers do whatever they want with it.

 

[Teasy]

Tekken 5 DR and Ridge Racer (which never drops below 60fps) were first efforts on the PSP as well.

By first attempts I meant launch titles, Street Fighter 3DS is a launch title, Tekken 5 was released almost a year and a half after the launch of PSP..

Anyway Tekken is now coming out for 3DS and its already been said it'll be 60fps in 3D mode. Should be coming out a year or so after 3DS launch, like Tekken 5 for PSP, and they seem to be putting in some good effort with it (well they seem excited anyway), so lets wait and see how it compares.

As for Zelda: sure, it has N64 roots, but it was nonetheless built from the ground up.

No its not, its an improved port, they're clearly trying to stick as close as possible to the original while sprucing up the graphics a bit. Which is why it was a pointless game to use to judge the capabilities of the system.

Calling Street Fighter better overall is a bold statement

Not IMO.. You've done a great job of finding a worst case scenario pic there, however you really don't need to find a zoomed in pic of Tekken 5 to see hideous textures:

If the game showed a close up of his arm it would make gamers eyes bleed!

 

[theLonely1]

Info

Did he knew about the GPU clock?

 

[Exophase]

Did he knew about the GPU clock?

I think he mentioned it, but I don't remember exactly and unfortunately I don't have logs (harddrive crash :/ although I could hex editor search through a recovered dump if you'd like, there's only some chance that it'll be there).. I want to say it was around 166-200MHz, but please don't hold me to that. I don't think it was anything that stood out as really high like 300+MHz.

 

[theLonely1]

I think he mentioned it, but I don't remember exactly and unfortunately I don't have logs (harddrive crash :/ although I could hex editor search through a recovered dump if you'd like, there's only some chance that it'll be there).. I want to say it was around 166-200MHz, but please don't hold me to that. I don't think it was anything that stood out as really high like 300+MHz.

Do you mind if I ask what else he had to say about the GPU? How much RAM does developers have access too?

 

[Teasy]

6 years later, for $250? I'm damn right we should!

Let me ask you the following: in March 2011, should we expect anything below a 1GHz Cortex A8 + 256MB RAM + OpenGL ES2.0 GPU for a $250 gaming handheld?

Ok first of all I'm going to start this off by saying that I would have liked the system to be more powerful, and I'm sure it could have been, just not to the level you're talking about.

PSP was $250 at release and as I said it was a bleeding edge loss making system. If you release a system with graphics a generation ahead of PSP a generation later (which is usually around 6 years) its going to be pretty bleeding edge and loss making. Not to mention there's the 3D thing to take into account. To release a system that displays everything in 3D AND shows graphics a generation ahead of PSP 6 years later is something even Sony wouldn't do and is just an unreasonable expectation.

By the way who says a "OpenGL ES2.0 GPU" would neccesarilly have been a better GPU? You're not suggesting that any of those GPU's would automatically have been better than PICA?

And we already know the battery life excuse is kinda BS... The console has poor battery life nonetheless, mainly because the battery is small and cheap (and there's enough space inside the console to put 2 of those).

You posted a link to a teardown, well here's a pic from it:

You're looking at the 3DS opened up from the back. On the left you have the battery compartment, which takes up all the space between the main board and the front of the 3DS casing on the left hand side. In the middle you've got the cartridge slot and various chips which take up the majority of that same space in the middle. On the right the slide pad and SD slot which again take up the majority of the space, where's all the space you're talking about to put in another one of those batteries?

Could they maybe have got a slightly bigger battery in there?, quite possibly, two?, no chance in hell, not without a different design.

 

[theLonely1]

They probably could. But without a radical redesign, the battery would need to be no-user replaceable. I prefer user replaceable. As it is, you can buy an extended 5000mAh battery if you don't mind the added bulk. I'm actually a bit concerned about Vita not having user replaceable battery.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

A 1-month post digging?

Ok first of all I'm going to start this off by saying that I would have liked the system to be more powerful, and I'm sure it could have been, just not to the level you're talking about.

PSP was $250 at release and as I said it was a bleeding edge loss making system. If you release a system with graphics a generation ahead of PSP a generation later (which is usually around 6 years) its going to be pretty bleeding edge and loss making. Not to mention there's the 3D thing to take into account. To release a system that displays everything in 3D AND shows graphics a generation ahead of PSP 6 years later is something even Sony wouldn't do and is just an unreasonable expectation.

Wouldn't a lower-clocked Hummingbird, A4, OMAP3 45nm and 2nd-gen Snapdragon wouldn't achieve all that?

If an A4 can punch out infinity blade @ 1024*768 in ipad 1, I bet even the 65nm OMAP3 (600MHz Cortex A8 + 110MHz SGX530) could do the same - if not better - at 800*240.

By the way who says a "OpenGL ES2.0 GPU" would neccesarilly have been a better GPU? Surely you're not suggesting that any of those GPU's would automatically have been better then PICA?

It doesn't dictate performance, but it does dictate compatibility with well established and successful engines supporting OpenGL ES 2.0 right now, such as UE3.

Could they maybe have got a slightly bigger battery in there?, quite possibly, two?, no chance in hell, not without a different design.

That's correct.. but I also took into account that the top part is mostly hollow.
Besides, I think a Micro-SD card would make a lot more sense for the console, giving way more space to a bigger battery.

 

[Teasy]

A 1-month post digging?


Wouldn't a lower-clocked Hummingbird, A4, OMAP3 45nm and 2nd-gen Snapdragon wouldn't achieve all that?

If an A4 can punch out infinity blade @ 1024*768 in ipad 1, I bet even the 65nm OMAP3 (600MHz Cortex A8 + 110MHz SGX530) could do the same - if not better - at 800*240.

Not IMO, to be blunt Infinity Blade is sooo massively overated. Its nowhere near what I'd call a generation ahead of PSP. It looks brilliant at first look, until you start to look past the glammer. Its basically just an on rails scripted tech demo. Even then it seems to have totally static lighting and no shadows. This seems to be a big problem with the GPU in Iphone. Its got the flexible shaders provided by its compatability with OpenGL ES2.0, but seems not to have the oomph to use them in a decent looking game with per pixel lighting, shadowing ect Which is sort of what I was hinting at earlier. At first I thought it was down to budgets, but then Epic came in with Unreal 3 and the problems still there.

It doesn't dictate performance, but it does dictate compatibility with well established and successful engines supporting OpenGL ES 2.0 right now, such as UE3.

Of course yes, I was just pointing out that a OpenGL ES2.0 GPU could be worse than PICA unless its the right level of performance.

That's correct.. but I also took into account that the top part is mostly hollow.
Besides, I think a Micro-SD card would make a lot more sense for the console, giving way more space to a bigger battery.

The top part is thinner than the 3DS battery though and the screen also takes up some of that space. I suppose they could have gotten some kind of very thin very long battery in there maybe?, but then we're starting to talk about none user replacable batteries.

 

[theLonely1]

Full quote is out:

The following are the fully translated comments from Pokémon Company head Tsunekazu Ishihara. We had some details from this information earlier in the week, but now we have the full details.

To be candid with you, the 3DS is not an easy platform to develop software on. Thinking about it another way, though, it's the kind of platform that really makes you want to delve into the feature set and figure out how to make fun things with it. The more you explore the features, the more ideas pop up about how to make games more fun. The 3DS has two CPUs -- one devoted to the game, another devoted to network communication -- and until the June update, I'd say that the communication chip was sort of a work in progress. The update completed the package, so to speak, and now we can get full performance out of that CPU. The fact that these two CPUs work independently of each other is really important -- one can work all by itself without being bogged down by the other. I think taking full advantage of that is one of the keys to 3DS game development.

Source.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Yes, the PSP was restricted. No user/game code on the Media Engine CPU. The Vita will have a core locked down too, although it's not as big of a problem when there are four of them.

In both cases that was one of, what, 4 high performance cores? It's insane that in the 3DS, which already has terribly under-powered CPU cores, a full half of that potential power was locked away.

PSP was $250 at release and as I said it was a bleeding edge loss making system. If you release a system with graphics a generation ahead of PSP a generation later (which is usually around 6 years) its going to be pretty bleeding edge and loss making. Not to mention there's the 3D thing to take into account. To release a system that displays everything in 3D AND shows graphics a generation ahead of PSP 6 years later is something even Sony wouldn't do and is just an unreasonable expectation.

That's not the expectation. My expectation is that, if Nintendo wan't to sell a platform with hardware barely a year beyond the PSP's in 2011 they should not be charging the same as the PSP cost in 2004. For the money, the 3DS hardware is a travesty. It's inexcusable. It should be twice as powerful and $100 cheaper.