NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[wco81]

In the face of the most recent hardware leaks from Orbis, I wonder how hard it would be for Microsoft to just increase the GPU core clocks by some 20-25% in order to narrow the difference in performance between the two consoles.
Both consoles seem to be designed for very good power efficiency.
Maybe it'd be best for Microsoft to cut a bit on that power efficiency, increase the speed on the internal fan a bit making it a bit louder too, just to get platform parity with the Orbis.

Otherwise, with such similar architectures and an obvious performance advantage in Orbis, we'll just see better versions in the Sony console in pretty much every multi-platform title that comes out this next gen.

Unless the MS tools are better?

Plus won't they be pushing the ability to target Durango as well as W8 devices with the same project?

 

[patsu]

What's the point of putting gpu like processors on a CPU then have them work to bolster a gpu? Sony would of been better off sacrificing some spes and getting a more robust gpu.

Depends on their goals.

They are better off fixing the GPU's vertex setup limit and other inherent shortfalls.

They may still partition the GPU for running different stages concurrently, like the rumored Orbis setup.

One of the problem with the ps3 was its esoteric design.

PS3's key problem is the limited memory size.

If PS3 is just a GPU monster, I wonder if it could run Blu-ray's max specs effectively. They may need dedicated video hardware also, which would be dormant during gaming.

Remember PS3 is based on 7-8 year old manufacturing technologies. They have tighter considerations. If not careful, early boxes could heat up and burn out.

 

[patsu]

I am in the camp that thinks we've simply still to hear anything about Durango's 'APU' component. But I could be wrong.

Me too ! I think Durango and Orbis may surprise people who just look at the numbers.

 

[arijoytunir]

Does the triangles/ vertex per sec rate matters ? Like 1.6 billion triangles/s for Liverpool gpu . What is the triangle rate of Durango gpu and how does both compare to the last gen and the top end Gpus like gtx 680 and 7970 ?

 

[Pugger]

Me too ! I think Durango and Orbis may surprise people who just look at the numbers.

I'm really surprised that more posters haven't pointed out the similarities of the machines rather than the differences. Developers are going to have it easy(ier) working on both machines.

 

[Averagejoe]

What's the point of putting gpu like processors on a CPU then have them work to bolster a gpu? Sony would of been better off sacrificing some spes and getting a more robust gpu.

One of the problem with the ps3 was its esoteric design.

Because it can help you reach closer to your peak performance,you can get the very best GPU,if you put help alone side it,it will perform even better than it would on its own.

 

[XpiderMX]

Now we need more info about the Durango CPU.

 

[Averagejoe]

Yea, except Durango's GPU isn't exactly 7770. Its more powerful with significantly more bandwidth at disposal.

It is stronger alto the peak performance is say to be the same 1.2TF.

It does have more bandwidth.

But that also apply to Orbis it has a stronger GPU than the 7850,and also has more bandwidth than the 7850.

 

[Averagejoe]

Most GPUs are in computers that also have a lot of 'CPU' RAM, that is however still available for everything just not as fast.

That is system ram which is mainly use to run the OS and its features.

On Orbis is say to be only 512MB.

 

[Averagejoe]

I would imagine Sony's intention was for Cell to enable stuff like better physics, AI, animations as well as stuff like Blu-Ray and fantastic audio (which it did to a large extent).

Cell was only relegated to doing alot of GPU stuff in many MP games because RSX struggled to keep up with the Xenos in MP game graphics workloads. On PS4 first party games, where games were designed around RSX and its weaknesses, CELL was able to do a lot more.

CELL wasn't merely designed to do just GPU helper stuff. It was just found that it was fast enough, and useful enough to do so in MP games this gen.

This time however, it looks as if Durango's GPU will be struggling to keep up with PS4's GPU alone (whether you're disingenuously counting 14CUs, or the full 18CUs). Unfortunately, Durango won't have a "Cell" to close that kind of performance gap. Even if it packed some modified Jaguar that doubled the flops rating over PS4's version, there's still some 410GFLOPs worth of CU rendering or compute (and that ignores the ROPs and TMU difference) on PS4 that would be impossible for Durango to match.

Pretty bad situation in my mind.

Exactly this is my argument as well,Cell was able to close that gap,but Cell was a big project that cost sony millions,and started on 2001 and ended on 2005.

I just don't see Durango CPU closing such a big gap while using the same CPU as Orbis even is modify to give something extra.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Looking at the latest rumours, I'd say Microsoft and Sony are following two distinct paths:

Orbis is set for higher price/performance and power/performance ratios on a home console. Yes, the Orbis should be some 20% more expensive to build than Durango but it'll also be up to 50% faster. The similar CPU and GPU instruction sets between consoles should make life quite easy for developers making multiplatform titles, and the added graphics power from Orbis should enable better/more shader effects, larger resolutions or better AA.



Durango, to me, seems to be set for being easily shrinkable to a tablet form factor in 4 years, using 14nm:
- All clocks seem low all-around (1.6GHz CPU, 800MHz GPU) which is a lot more compatible with low-leakage, low-power manufacturing processes.
- An identical CPU+GPU+ embedded RAM SoC should be possible and smallish at 14nm. Such a chip at 14nm would be about the same size as a current Tegra 3 (assuming the current SoC at 28nm stands at ~300mm^2).
- By then , the 68GB/s main RAM bandwidth should be easily covered by a quad-channel 32bit LPDDR4 configuration:

Sony would have a really tough time fitting 8GB worth of 190GB/s bandwidth into a low-power format.
But then again, Sony already has its own line of portable consoles, and they are already trying to "unify" the development tools between the portable and the home consoles. Therefore, Sony should be comfortable with keeping two different hardware lines for longer than Microsoft, which only has one at the moment.


So if the rumours are true and this is the XBox "Next" coming in late 2013/ early 2014, my bet is that we'll have a Microsoft "Surface XBox" tablet coming as early as 2016, maybe with a XBox Phone coming some 2 years later.

 

[arijoytunir]

So with 14nm die shrink will the power consumption go down in the similar levels of today's tablet soc's ? Can't sony also do this with their orbis portable as the ps vita successor with stacked ram !

 

[AlphaWolf]

I wouldn't hold my breath on either system making it portable. Even shrunk to 14nm these systems would still be pulling quite a few watts before a display.

 

[dobwal]

I would imagine Sony's intention was for Cell to enable stuff like better physics, AI, animations as well as stuff like Blu-Ray and fantastic audio (which it did to a large extent).

Cell was only relegated to doing alot of GPU stuff in many MP games because RSX struggled to keep up with the Xenos in MP game graphics workloads. On PS4 first party games, where games were designed around RSX and its weaknesses, CELL was able to do a lot more.

CELL wasn't merely designed to do just GPU helper stuff. It was just found that it was fast enough, and useful enough to do so in MP games this gen.

This time however, it looks as if Durango's GPU will be struggling to keep up with PS4's GPU alone (whether you're disingenuously counting 14CUs, or the full 18CUs). Unfortunately, Durango won't have a "Cell" to close that kind of performance gap. Even if it packed some modified Jaguar that doubled the flops rating over PS4's version, there's still some 410GFLOPs worth of CU rendering or compute (and that ignores the ROPs and TMU difference) on PS4 that would be impossible for Durango to match.

Pretty bad situation in my mind.

Totally agree. I don't Cell represents bad technology but that the PS3 represents poor design. GPUs are the primary processor in gaming, a console shouldn't be designed to use a cpu to beef up a weak gpu.

Orbis seems like a reimagining of Cell/RSX arch with a gpu centric design which will make it alot more difficult for MS to make up for less FLOPs. I am sure that the gap won't be as large as comparing a 7770 versus a 7850 as gaming apis, x86 and PC gpus are MS's area of expertise. But unless MS has something up their sleeves a rather noticeable gap will still exist, because a more efficient/feature rich api and better tools should not make up for a 256 streaming processors advantage. However, thats under the belief that Sony won't make a colossal mistake.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

So with 14nm die shrink will the power consumption go down in the similar levels of today's tablet soc's ?

I believe that given the architecture and a 14nm shrink, it should be rather easy to fit a Durango into the Surface Pro's chassis, and maybe with some effort, the Surface RT's form factor. Detachable gamepads in the sides of the tablet would be a must, of course, as well as a wireless version of Kinect.

Can't sony also do this with their orbis portable as the ps vita successor with stacked ram !

Using LPDDR4 4300, they would need to stack 8GBytes/64GBits using a 384bit bus. I don't know how LPDDR density will evolve, but I honestly find that unlikely.

 

[anexanhume]

I wouldn't hold my breath on either system making it portable. Even shrunk to 14nm these systems would still be pulling quite a few watts before a display.

Yes. Look at the 360. Shrink from 90nm to 45nm halved its power (generous) down to 100W.

Durango is at least 120W. You've got to reduce that by a factor of at least 10 to start talking about tablets.

 

[Ruskie]

It is stronger alto the peak performance is say to be the same 1.2TF.

It does have more bandwidth.

But that also apply to Orbis it has a stronger GPU than the 7850,and also has more bandwidth than the 7850.

Well, you said "little beef up 7850 vs 7770" which is not the case. Either both are "little beef up" or neither is. As far as bandwidth goes, 7770 has considarably smaller "pool" of total bandwidth in comparison to Durango, while 7850 and Orbis GPU have pretty much the same amount (Orbis has 20GB/s higher, but it also shares it between CPU and GPU).

 

[function]

As MS have the smaller and presumably cooler processor they may have the option of "overclocking" it to get more out of the system. 800 -> 900 mHz shouldn't be too hard - just pay some labourers to go in to the bios and test with 3D Mark loops [/jk].

Also, DDR3 2400 might not be out of the question if they're prepared to pay for validation. It's already becoming an unofficial standard for enthusiast PCs. If they have sufficient flexibility / memory abstraction they could switch to DDR4 in 2015.

 

[Arwin]

That is system ram which is mainly use to run the OS and its features.

No, you can cache a lot of data in there, including vertex data that can be pre-manipulated for physics, AI, textures that can be pre-processed, you can have complex data-structures and/or logic in there for AI, etc. It's not incredibly efficient to access for the GPU but it's still many times faster than accessing the HDD.

On Orbis is say to be only 512MB.

But that 512MB comes out of the same memory pool as the GPU's memory.

 

[tunafish]

Durango, to me, seems to be set for being easily shrinkable to a tablet form factor in 4 years, using 14nm:

No %#$@ing way.

What can and what cannot fit into a tablet is all about power. Die shrinks today give you less than 50% power reduction per full node. The very upper limit of what can reasonably be fit into a tablet is something like 10W. 14nm is two shrinks, do you really think that the Durango specs we are seeing mean less than 40W power consumption? Durango is maybe 4 shrinks away from being a tablet system. Will we even get 4 shrinks anymore?

I actually think that Wii U is eventually meant to fit a tablet. It will be feasible in 14nm or the shrink after that. Durango? No way.