NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[dagamer]

So ah,how can we know that until MS/Sony's official announcement,but i highly doubt Durango's OS(+apps,i know) will use 1GB RAM,since even Win8 for PC use less RAM than Win7(they won't go back),plus Kinect never a expensive thing(unless include marketing cost)

Next gen=new start=new rule,we need to know that

And like many people,i also think Sony should learn their lesson after PS3's launch...but then PSV launched...well,i don't think they really learned anything.

I think they learned plenty from the hardware side with the PS Vita. They had a commonly used CPU with an easy to understand GPU, and put it in an attractive package with a 2nd joystick that every PSP owner clamored for.

The problem with the PS Vita isn't the hardware, it's a lack of games (same with the Nintendo 3DS in its early life), plus it's competing with smartphones which is a whole 'nother ball game.

Any "mistakes" the PS Vita made aren't really relevant to the PS4, since they are really only competing with Microsoft instead of every cell phone company and Nintendo for your mobile entertainment time.

 

[N2O]

Thing is, I think the PS4 specs are relatively modest and inexpensive, while still looking like they pack the most punch so far.

A very capable system can be pushed out at a reasonable price without breaking the bank imo. A lot of debates otherwise assume a lot of things that just arent true. Like that any decent system must cost $600 and bankrupt it's maker. There is a middle ground. I fear Microsoft is the one making the wrong choices here (but again, thats based on only rumors so far). But for example, the leaked docs suggest Microsoft plans their next gen box to come in at 299 and be profitable immediately. That is an example of being too frugal, that will cost them in the long run when in year 3 their system is all the sudden flagging badly for lack of punch, and the only thing they can do at that point to stimulate sales is costly price cuts. Basically what I saw the Gamecube go through. When you're in a situation where the only way to stimulate demand is price cuts because your hardware isn't attractive enough compared to the competition, that "cheap" hardware is going to cost you way more in the long run (Nintendo will likely face this in the extreme with Wii U imo).

Well ah...why every new Durango rumor out and if it "looks" not good,many people will automatic trust it?
And he docs is too old for truth,not even a rumor level,just some outdated thing,MS most likely think nextbox will be the last home console of Xbox,they won't use any cheap hardware,unless they gonna make a PC like Xbox(yeah i remember they talked about this in docs too,but not possible)

Plus,you guys have too much faith to Sony,well yeah i guess PS4 will still have good hardware but i seriously doubt it will obviously better than nextbox

 

[bkilian]

This isn't the first time kilian has hinted at a very powerful CPU in Durango. It doesn't jive with our most accepted Durango rumors though, which focus on something like 8 small Jaguar cores.

Once again, I'm not hinting at anything. I pointed out that the PS3 compensated for a weak GPU with a strong CPU, it was just an example.

I'd guess someone who posts under their real name isn't hinting anything.

EXACTLY!

 

[(((interference)))]

I think the 720 will be at least as powerful as the PS4, if not more.

It just doesn't jive with MS' recent hardware strategy to launch a neutered product.
Things like the Surface tablet are premium offerings so I don't expect the next Xbox to be anything less.

And let's not forget that unlike the competition MS has loads of cash and aren't bleeding money - plus this isn't the Sony under Kutaragi, as hardware like the PS Vita shows.

 

[TheWretched]

I think the 720 will be at least as powerful as the PS4, if not more.

It just doesn't jive with MS' recent hardware strategy to launch a neutered product.
Things like the Surface tablet are premium offerings so I don't expect the next Xbox to be anything less.

But their recent E3 keynotes say exactly that... they don't really focus on "hardcore games" anymore, and prefer the "home entertainment" by a huge margin. Now I am not saying they don't want to have any hardcore games anymore, but their focus shifted VERY much in the past two years.

 

[XpiderMX]

But their recent E3 keynotes say exactly that... they don't really focus on "hardcore games" anymore, and prefer the "home entertainment" by a huge margin. Now I am not saying they don't want to have any hardcore games anymore, but their focus shifted VERY much in the past two years.

Last E3 don't seems like that. The number of Kinect (and casual) games was too low compared with 2011/2010 E3.

 

[TheWretched]

Yes, but instead of showing games, most of the stuff they DID show was non-game related. Like IE, and all the sports and movies stuff... i.e. everything that doesn't need fast hardware, since my Raspberry Pi can essentially do that (minus the IE part)

 

[Cyan]

Yes, but instead of showing games, most of the stuff they DID show was non-game related. Like IE, and all the sports and movies stuff... i.e. everything that doesn't need fast hardware, since my Raspberry Pi can essentially do that (minus the IE part)

Well, that doesn't have to necessarily mean much for next generation.

A system can have the most modern technology, and yet it can very usable for any casual, because they don't care about the innards, but it is going to be a really capable system and run what every casual out there wants.

In fact a powerful system just gives you more possibilities and reduces the limits.

If Nintendo invented Kinect mid-cycle like MS did, they couldn't use it on the Wii at all as an external device, I think, because it couldn't process the added processing burden.

In my opinion, the best thing about a very capable system is that it is not at odds with original ideas, whether they are casual or more traditional, it can do everything. :smile:

That's a huge advantage we tend to overlook at times. I'd rather play Mario on the WiiU than on the Wii, if I could, for many reasons. It would be even a more enjoyable experience while keeping the essence of the game because of the extra processing capabilities. :smile:

 

[Brad Grenz]

That's something that gets lost in these debates, but it is exactly the point Chris Hecker made in his famous "two gamecubes duct tapped together" rant at GDC. Low power hardware is literally limited to game design. Nintendo fans got super defensive, but this isn't just about being a graphics whore. You can't do Assassin's Creed on a Wii. There will be games next gen that can't be done on a PS3, 360 or Wii U.

MS certainly took the 360 a lot of places it wasn't originally designed for. Hopefully they recognize the utility in a design that is similarly flexible.

 

[Rangers]

EA honcho says next gen machines are "spectacular" http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...au-order-chaos-and-a-new-golden-age-of-gaming

One thing is certain: companies like EA are waiting for those new consoles with all the patience they can muster, and several key publishers have been quite open about how much they believe this elongated cycle has hurt their business.

"When you launch a new IP it needs to do something really, really remarkable, and that's easier to do when you have a new set of technology that gives you novel capabilities," Gibeau says. "This is the longest cycle that any of us have ever seen, and we're at the point where a little bit of fatigue has set in, and people are wondering what they can possibly do next. I've seen the machines that we're building games for, and they're spectacular.

There seems to be more hints floating around to me, read between the lines stuff like above, and other things, that hint to me next box is not just a lowly 1tf gpu.

 

[Ruskie]

Maybe, as Acerts "source" said, its "1TFLOPS double precision". Now thats what I would call spectacular.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It'd also be pointless. You'd only care about maximum flops for games, so why give out a DP performance metric in a rumour?

 

[Ruskie]

Thats why I said "source", because it seems extremely unlikely. But he did say they got new type of embedded memory that is not eDRAM...

 

[Blazkowicz]

which is more powerful, SNES or Megadrive?


the SNES obviously. but megadrive has a much faster CPU (see thunderforce IV as a nice fast paced game), and if additional chips are left out it murdered the SNES in 3D gaming.
(there's one such SNES game, Race Drivin'. it's very disturbing. did any one buy it? this game made me think we're doomed as a species.)

Those numbers you said weren´t believed by anyone back in 2005.

I guess it's the age old trick of counting bilinear filtering as flops, maybe not even caring and using rates for integer textures as they're bigger. nowadays you can add hardware video decoders and stuff.

 

[N2O]

EA honcho says next gen machines are "spectacular" http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...au-order-chaos-and-a-new-golden-age-of-gaming



There seems to be more hints floating around to me, read between the lines stuff like above, and other things, that hint to me next box is not just a lowly 1tf gpu.

Well i still don't really understand someone in gaf still think it will be 1tf,if the rumor is true
(http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=469312&page=11)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well i still don't really understand someone in gaf still think it will be 1ft,if the rumor is true

A one foot GPU? Square foot??

 

[N2O]

A one foot GPU? Square foot??

Oh lol why i type ft

 

[Mobius1aic]

which is more powerful, SNES or Megadrive?


the SNES obviously. but megadrive has a much faster CPU (see thunderforce IV as a nice fast paced game), and if additional chips are left out it murdered the SNES in 3D gaming.
(there's one such SNES game, Race Drivin'. it's very disturbing. did any one buy it? this game made me think we're doomed as a species.)

My brother and I enjoyed many hours with Race Drivin' on the Genesis. It wasn't THAT bad. The 3D novelty never really wore off. It had a pretty cool track editor too.

I'm beginning to truly believe that the 720 will have Cape Verde and the PS4 might have Pictairn. The timelines make general sense, and they are not extreme spectrum GPUs in that sense too. I'm quite fascinated by what Cape Verde could do when coded to metal. It's one of AMD's most fantastic graphics processors I think. The performance, size, power and thermal envelope are all excellent. It's a rightful heir to what the 4770 was for the R700 series.

As for Jaguar being the CPU. How practical would it be to modify the quad with 256 bit FPUs as opposed to 128? What if MS wants to go up to eight x86 cores with 128 bit FPUs instead, or perhaps 8 cores with 256 bit FPUs (zomg!)? Then I being to wonder, would it be better to stick with fewer wider cores (4 issue like a BD module), or with many narrower cores (2 issue a la Jaguar)?

 

[upnorthsox]

My brother and I enjoyed many hours with Race Drivin' on the Genesis. It wasn't THAT bad. The 3D novelty never really wore off. It had a pretty cool track editor too.

I'm beginning to truly believe that the 720 will have Cape Verde and the PS4 might have Pictairn. The timelines make general sense, and they are not extreme spectrum GPUs in that sense too. I'm quite fascinated by what Cape Verde could do when coded to metal. It's one of AMD's most fantastic graphics processors I think. The performance, size, power and thermal envelope are all excellent. It's a rightful heir to what the 4770 was for the R700 series.

As for Jaguar being the CPU. How practical would it be to modify the quad with 256 bit FPUs as opposed to 128? What if MS wants to go up to eight x86 cores with 128 bit FPUs instead, or perhaps 8 cores with 256 bit FPUs (zomg!)? Then I being to wonder, would it be better to stick with fewer wider cores (4 issue like a BD module), or with many narrower cores (2 issue a la Jaguar)?

From Charlie:

On the FP side, things are very different. Like Bobcat, the decoder can still issue two instructions per clock to two FP pipelines. Bobcat had 64-bit wide FP units, so 128-bit SSE instructions had to be processed with two passes though that pipe. This hurt performance but took less die area. With the shrink to 28nm, Jaguar’s cores have a lot more area to play with, so the FP pipes were widened to 128-bits for one pass SSE execution. Unfortunately for the architects, Jaguar supports the AVX instruction set, and that means 256-bit FP operations. To do those, Jaguar has to do two passes through a 128-bit pipe.

So they're half way there, but then again they doubled up to get to Jaguar so going further may be pushing it.

 

[McHuj]

As for Jaguar being the CPU. How practical would it be to modify the quad with 256 bit FPUs as opposed to 128? What if MS wants to go up to eight x86 cores with 128 bit FPUs instead, or perhaps 8 cores with 256 bit FPUs (zomg!)? Then I being to wonder, would it be better to stick with fewer wider cores (4 issue like a BD module), or with many narrower cores (2 issue a la Jaguar)?

What about just using some dedicated GCN CU's as a coprocessor instead.

8 Jaguar cores at 2GHz = 128 Gigaflops
3 CU's (192 shaders) at 500MHz for an additional 192 single precision gigaflops
Total: 320 Gigaflops and all probably within 25-30 Watts.

When using the Xbox for streaming media/movies or just dashboard apps, the whole system could probably just execute out of that APU. It could probably passively cooled as well.

When gaming, the discrete GPU fires up and adds similar raw performance to a discrete Cape Verde, 1+ Tflops.