NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[DuckThor Evil]

It' could be just an APU that has been modified to give that performance. Microsoft did have two GPU's in that Yukon .pdf so I wouldn't doubt it. It's not rocket science. ATI also had the Console label in the same documentation from "Cape Verde". In 2013, I don't call 1TF performance overkill.

The "always on" GPU in the document was nowhere near 1.2TF. I don't doubt there being a Cape Verde in the console, but it's not there for what you think it is.

According to you it's impossible to have a console have an APU and a discrete GPU.
I mean that is more crazy than having ray tracing built in for sure! LOL

All I've said is that there won't be a 1.5 billion transistor GPU just to handle some UI+small apps. You can believe what you want, but if you think it'll have that + much more powerful second GPU, you are kidding yourself. I don't know what that last sentence is supposed to mean and why you are saying it to me, but whatever.

actually total with edram is 332m. just to be pedantic.

Sorry I had Xenon transistors + eDram in mind, so yeah little over 300M

 

[Rangers]

For a large part, that didn't happen this gen and the gap was much smaller.

I expect the vs threads to believe just as alive and well next gen as they were this gen

ehh, too be fair, it mostly *did* happen.

sure you could and we did comb for differences under a microscope, but they probably didn't matter to joe schmoe.

that said i've always predicted it's very unlikely we'll get two system as close as ps3 and 360 again. they literally were almost completely equal. hell if you put a gun to my head i still dont know which one i think is more powerful at the end of the day. the odds of that occurring are very small, and it seems clear we'll have more fundamental differences next gen in favor of each box.

 

[torbor]

Well, you can sigh all you want and think that I believe it's magic.

When some how you magically believe that Microsoft spent millions of dollars, tons of man hours with entire teams of some of the best minds in the industry from AMD (which this was a project that was a huge priority more so than Sony or Nintendo), IBM, and internal people at Microsoft to produce a cheap console that is barely better than the Wii U.

The rumours that there are yield problems regarding the Apu of Ms also dont make sense if the gpu only has 1,2 terraflops...(and somehow Sony doesnt have such problems with a more powerfull gpu??)

 

[Rangers]

The rumours that there are yield problems regarding the Apu of Ms also dont make sense if the gpu only has 1,2 terraflops...(and somehow Sony doesnt have such problems with a more powerfull gpu??)

Those rumors only came from Charlie/semiaccurate and he's stupid.

 

[french toast]

I dont know where I sit on this....I hope the rumours are true and we get 2 unique custom built machines, that are also easy for devs to develop for pc and both top consoles....lots of nuences in both with lots of hidden power to unlock in 1st party titles....

Xbox 360 was the king of cross platform...no question there..but sony seemed to really make their 1st party titles stand out..that was my take...in the end they were equal.

I hope for something similar with cross platform..with both maybe having strengths in some area for 1st party..ie.one rocks with tesselation and physics. ..the other lighting and ray tracing or something....enough variety in 1st person titles to make it interesting and a geniune differential.

From what I read so far performance between the two seems to vary...but if some details are to be believed compatibility for cross platform really looks good....better than last gen...and the above scenario about enough differentaion on 1st party titles looks promising.....just not sure I believe some of this multi soc blitter nonsense...probably some of the more educated peeps can put me in the picture a bit more.

About the rumoured 600gflops lead the ps4 has over 720....in games if it is only just say a same uarch gpu pproviding those flops..at 1080p...then I cant see it making any difference at all..of you look at pc games and go from "high" settings to "ultra"... they basically look the same IMO

Cross platform will be similar to this generation..its 1st party where its really gonna get interesting.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Those rumors only came from Charlie/semiaccurate and he's stupid.

Integrating big amount of ESRAM/EDRAM can cause difficulties with yields.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

I rather meant dedicated hardware for global illumination.

So every game would have to do global illumination? Using the same one approach?

I understand the enthusiasm, but all you new guys here should seriously pull back on posting and focus more on reading. You are not contributing anything but noise. There are other forums for that, Beyond 3D is meant to be much more about informed discussion.

 

[french toast]

So every game would have to do global illumination? Using the same one approach?

I understand the enthusiasm, but all you new guys here should seriously pull back on posting and focus more on reading. You are not contributing anything but noise. There are other forums for that, Beyond 3D is meant to be much more about informed discussion.

Yes dad :/

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Understand that some of us have been visiting this forum for a long, long time, we're used to a way of how it operates - which is mostly knowledgeable people sharing information.

The sudden influx of new users in the past two months was more or less expected, the starting of each 'console war' has always brought new people to B3D. But it doesn't mean that the old user base just has to accept the mess, IMHO.

There are lots of other forums for flame wars and fantasies. B3D has always been about knowledge, we have a lot of actual developers posting valuable information and insight and opinion, and we want to keep them here. We ask every newcomer to keep this in mind and only post when their words are a real contribution and not just more noise.

 

[Rangers]

Integrating big amount of ESRAM/EDRAM can cause difficulties with yields.

sure, but pretty much every other thing charlie has written about next gen was blatantly stupid and/or wrong. why give him credibility on that one? When as far as I know he's the only "source" who even said it?

also i'll bet the esram is on a separate die anyway, like latest 360 revision.

 

[french toast]

Understand that some of us have been visiting this forum for a long, long time, we're used to a way of how it operates - which is mostly knowledgeable people sharing information.

The sudden influx of new users in the past two months was more or less expected, the starting of each 'console war' has always brought new people to B3D. But it doesn't mean that the old user base just has to accept the mess, IMHO.

There are lots of other forums for flame wars and fantasies. B3D has always been about knowledge, we have a lot of actual developers posting valuable information and insight and opinion, and we want to keep them here. We ask every newcomer to keep this in mind and only post when their words are a real contribution and not just more noise.

I havnt come on in the last month..ive been around here for over a year...granted still new compared to a lot of peeps but long enough to know your a tad arrogant for your own good.
I dont engange in flame wars...either.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

latching onto individual figures is not a useful way to understand performance differences.

This is so true, and yet I fear falls on deaf ears. Human beings are comparators by nature, and the invention of numbers and metrics has given people an easy comparative point which brains naturally latch onto. Very few people will ever look beyond the given metrics (specs), which is why those metrics are pushed (bigger specs for megapixels, contrast ratio, flops, etc.). The only fair comparison is to see two products doing what they do and seeing which does it better, regardless of what's under the hood.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

granted still new compared to a lot of peeps but long enough to know your a tad arrogant for your own good.

I wasn't talking to you, and it was you who started to insult me.

I also don't really recall any significant contributions from you... but maybe I wasn't reading the forums enough.

 

[itsmydamnation]

I havnt come on in the last month..ive been around here for over a year...granted still new compared to a lot of peeps but long enough to know your a tad arrogant for your own good.
I dont engange in flame wars...either.

Guess that makes me arrogant as well. i read this forum because people like, Laa-Yosh, repi , dave, Rhys, aaronspink( my apologizes to all the awesome people i haven't listed ) and so many more people with so much real world experience and knowledge post invaluable information and insight.

The great thing about microprocessors is they are logic machines, which means with some fundamental level of understand and solid logic you can make lots of logical assumptions that will end up being correct or close to. When you post a point of view and back it up with solid logic if you are wrong its generally because of a flaw in your understanding. Generally on this forum someone will go to the effort to point that out and explain how it works. From this everyone who reads benefits. The problem is so many of the posts in this section are just so fundamentally flawed from the most basic of logical assessments.

That is why Laa-Yosh was having a dig, no one is benefiting.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Yeah. As I've posted a few times, with 1.8 TF Orb and 5 GB RAM Dur, most games will be made for the lowest common denominator, 1.2 TF and 3.5GB.

Both of those denominators may not be equal though in terms of developer effort. While devs may target 3.5TB across platforms so all assets can be reused, extra GPU power could provide higher IQ and framrates without any aditional effort by the developer.

 

[Hornet]

Both of those denominators may not be equal though in terms of developer effort. While devs may target 3.5TB across platforms so all assets can be reused, extra GPU power could provide higher IQ and framrates without any aditional effort by the developer.

One could also argue that more memory will likely result in less texture pop-in and shorter loading times on Durango with no additional developer effort. Also, framerates can be limited not only by shaders, but by many other factors.

 

[french toast]

I wasn't talking to you, and it was you who started to insult me.

I also don't really recall any significant contributions from you... but maybe I wasn't reading the forums enough.

Well if you geniunly were not talking to me as you have said then I will appologise...however you wrote a reply after it was clear I took offence.

For the record I only usually engage in conversations I feel I can contribute in....certainly no fan boi ism or noise....you havnt seen me write around here recently because I havnt logged on recently.

Anyway this conversation iS noise...nuff said.

 

[french toast]

Guess that makes me arrogant as well. i read this forum because people like, Laa-Yosh, repi , dave, Rhys, aaronspink( my apologizes to all the awesome people i haven't listed ) and so many more people with so much real world experience and knowledge post invaluable information and insight.

The great thing about microprocessors is they are logic machines, which means with some fundamental level of understand and solid logic you can make lots of logical assumptions that will end up being correct or close to. When you post a point of view and back it up with solid logic if you are wrong its generally because of a flaw in your understanding. Generally on this forum someone will go to the effort to point that out and explain how it works. From this everyone who reads benefits. The problem is so many of the posts in this section are just so fundamentally flawed from the most basic of logical assessments.

That is why Laa-Yosh was having a dig, no one is benefiting.

Yea I agree woth that...it seems like a miss understanding and that he didnt direct his comments at me...in which case I wasnt calling him arrogant. ...or you for that matter.

 

[Grall]

extra GPU power could provide higher IQ and framrates without any aditional effort by the developer.

Also, you can't really "target" 1.2TFs of GPU power, because flops are not a fixed, absolute resource (especially between different HW archs) like for example how RAM is. How much work you get out of those flops depend on what you want to do, and how well you adapt your code for that task and the underlying hardware.

Anyhow, I doubt any dev worth their salt making a serious title would just drop 600Mflops on the floor and not utilize it for anything because only one of the two major consoles offer that level of performance. No, that does not make sense.

 

[ShadowRunner]

One could also argue that more memory will likely result in less texture pop-in and shorter loading times on Durango with no additional developer effort. Also, framerates can be limited not only by shaders, but by many other factors.

Yes indeed, so while devs may target the lowes common denomenator there still may quite noticeable differences with each SKU. Will be interesting how that would turn out and which advantages end up being more significant