Next Xbox already in planning

My guess is that xbox launch date will depend heavily on 360/PS3 ratio

If the PS3 catches on and surpasses 360 this year in total numbers, threatening to become the next PS2 in sales - MS will launch the next xbox in 2009, so that Sony cannot respond. It will not be the same leap in power as 360 is to the xbox1, but it will be the most powerfull console on the market for probably 3-4 years.

If 360 manages to stay close to the PS3, then MS will be more inclined to capitalize on that and stay for another 2-3 years, until 2011-12.

Sony will not get PS4 out until 2012 or 2013. I guess it will be 2013 in the case MS launches in 2009 (depending on the sales of PS3 at that time, but if the manage to stay at PS2 levels, sony has no reason to hurry), and 2012 if MS launches in 2012 (to avoid the scenarion currently developing).

Witch ratio? the worse situation I can see now is 2/3, MS won't be press to stop milking the 360. If ms has 60.000.000 units out and sony 90.000.000 there is still a lot of room to make money.
MS will not be under pressure as the market will be profitable for them, they will launch when they want depending on cost and technologies they'll plan to use and others constructors choices.

HT
acert Where do you live in Ohio? My girlfrienf studies in boiling green and I 've spend a month and a half there, sorry in just curious ;) )
HT
 
2009 is too early, 2014 is too late.

both consoles will launch between 2010 and 2012, almost as sure as the sun will rise.
Also there will be no more than a 12month/1year gap between them.
 
Witch ratio? the worse situation I can see now is 2/3, MS won't be press to stop milking the 360. If ms has 60.000.000 units out and sony 90.000.000 there is still a lot of room to make money.
MS will not be under pressure as the market will be profitable for them, they will launch when they want depending on cost and technologies they'll plan to use and others constructors choices.

That was my reasoning - if the ratio will be 2/3, MS will remain as long as possible.
OTOH, if they look to stay at 30-35 mil and PS3 is on the 100 mil road (to there yet, but sure to reach), MS will make an even earlyer launch, in 2009.
I dont see as possible that MS is catching Sony this generation - a 1/1 ratio - although this would be the most interesting case to study.
 
so ps4 development must have been started if they are to keep up the pace with microsoft... or is this going to happen in few months???
 
PS3's design was on the cards before PS2 was out the door. However, I wouldn't be surprised if PS4 wasn't rushing ahead any amount. They won't be looking at designing a whole brand new CPU this time, unlike PS2 and PS3. Similarly, chances are high that nVidia's on board for the GPU. Perhaps they'll start work on a Cell+GPU hybrid, or just leave it to a console-friendly unified shader architecture from nVidia, started 2 years before release? My reasoning says PS4 isn't even on the boardroom whiteboard yet.
 
PS3's design was on the cards before PS2 was out the door. However, I wouldn't be surprised if PS4 wasn't rushing ahead any amount. They won't be looking at designing a whole brand new CPU this time, unlike PS2 and PS3. Similarly, chances are high that nVidia's on board for the GPU. Perhaps they'll start work on a Cell+GPU hybrid, or just leave it to a console-friendly unified shader architecture from nVidia, started 2 years before release? My reasoning says PS4 isn't even on the boardroom whiteboard yet.

I doubt they have definitive specs/design currently for ps4 but I would think they are evaluating the current market situations and coming up with spec ranges and concepts for ps4 as we speak.
 
I doubt they have definitive specs/design currently for ps4 but I would think they are evaluating the current market situations and coming up with spec ranges and concepts for ps4 as we speak.
Why would you start planning a next product based on evaluations of 3 months into your current gen market? Isn't that like deciding on what horse to bet in the next race based on who's first 10 seconds after they've left the gate?

Plans for PS4 are more likely to be on hold waiting for 2 years into PS3 to see how it does and guage market reaction to pricepoint and features.
 
Why would you start planning a next product based on evaluations of 3 months into your current gen market? Isn't that like deciding on what horse to bet in the next race based on who's first 10 seconds after they've left the gate?

Plans for PS4 are more likely to be on hold waiting for 2 years into PS3 to see how it does and guage market reaction to pricepoint and features.

Well:

1) Sony has learned $600 systems don't sell much beyond the first couple million.

2) They have seen the wild success of Wii and its innovative/simple controller.

3) They have a ballpark figure for what process is likely to be available for specific timetables.


They will need to start looking at what their launch time table is for ps4. If Ps3 is selling poorly and continues to underachieve, they may want to undercut the cycle (ala xbox1) and launch "early" in the hopes of either jumping in front of MS or worst case matching their launch window.

If ps3 catches fire and starts selling like gangbusters then this notion flies out the window but if it continues to lag you can bet they will want to remedy the situation for their next console any way possible. One sure fire way to give your console a good shot at competing is to launch first (ala ps2, xbox360)

If they do decide to launch "early" (2010) then they need to start planning now to ensure they have dev kits to developers asap. There are many lessons to be learned from this generation and hopefully Sony takes advantage of these lessons and uses them to their advantage.

Microsoft I'm sure will be evaluating all options as well and while they may not launch in 2010, I believe they will be ready to if necessary. Dito Sony & Nintendo.
 
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so ps4 development must have been started if they are to keep up the pace with microsoft... or is this going to happen in few months???


PS4 development began around mid 2005. roughly one and a half years ago.

Sony announced future roadmap for CELL in 2005/2006, and also, joint development on future graphics with Nvidia in 2005. PS4 development is well underway, as is the next Xbox.


that said, the PS4 R&D that started in 2005 does not mean it will end up in the final PS4 that comes out in 2012ish,
 
I doubt they have definitive specs/design currently for ps4 but I would think they are evaluating the current market situations and coming up with spec ranges and concepts for ps4 as we speak.

The problem is that it can happen to much to have any jugdment till, at least the mid of the consoles life (it can even be that a bad/great start may turn in a great/bad thing) sure they can bet on somethings that are already clear (online and Wiiremote like, are some of those IMO), but that it isnt enought to even starting to have any clear idea of what will be good of an, yet, unknow launch time.

For example, MS now is probably looking at plans from IBM/AMD/? from what they expect to do/be able to do in 2010/2011/?, while it is doing some R&D (like they are doing SW and HW R&D for voice recg, there is a thread about it) and looking at the market and trying to understand what people wants. Then when they start to have a somewhat clear idea of what the market wants and what is possible to give them they will see what should be better for their plans and starting to make deals (eg with AMD) and organizing themselfs to work on (eg doing prioritys, assign works, set time tables...). Only after that they will start working on something that will resemble the final console, ie R&D of the actual chips while time passes deciding what will be in or what will be out...

These is actually a much more organic process than one may think at first, look at the decision of put 512MB/use a Iin order CPU isntead of 256MB/a OOE CPU on 360, the price/name of wii, or even using a NV GPU on the PS3, that had been much later than one may think at first.

So they now only have sets of possibilitys with some (not much) work on them (to get a better idea of it), as time pass they will chosse some and concentrate/work on those, and repeat this till they have the final console.
 
I bet MS is learning heavily from Sony this time around ala PS2. By the time 360 (prem) is around $100 then the next gen xbox will be out. They want to be able to appeal to gamers at all price points. That is the best way to make money in this business.
 
1. Will IBM even have a high performance/low power CPU for multimedia that is not Cell2 in 5 years time?

2. Since AMD is the likely candidate for the GPU, they will probably be pushing their CPU/GPU in one packages to MS. That type of chip would have so many advantages for a console platform.

In either case, backwards compatibility for the next xbox seems to be at risk again.
 
No amount of market evaluation is bound to stop research into future technologies all by itself.
At most, it can influence CPU, GPU, storage and gameplay aspects of the project, but altering such basic aspects as keeping consistency/compatibility with older software (that's the keyword right there) calls for a very careful approach.
The cost of scrapping hardware R&D altogether is often much higher than ditching software code-bases, but with tens of millions spent on R&D per game it came to a point of walking a fine line between success and failure.
The wide margin of error of the 80's is long gone.


For instance, i don't think the rumored *full compatibility break* of the future Windows codename "Vienna", would be even remotely possible without the aid of multi core development, yes, but it would also not be possible if there was no hardware and software support for robust, near-native speed emulation (at least comparable to running current apps in contemporaneous hardware natively).
This would almost certainly imply having to move towards a native X86-64 codebase, dropping old x86 FPU's and legacy register files, "RISC-ing" even more the x86 architecture.
For all those things, there's a degree of control/influence that a software-driven company cannot expect to have.

I'm sure IBM would not be willing to hand over PPC IP control to Microsoft for the X360, unless they would settle for a simple design (compared to the "big iron" server chips).
Cost would not be a factor for MS, nor would be power requirements, judging by IBM's recent power efficiency claims.
The prize would be ultimate: living-room domination, in much the same way iPod's rule the MP3 player and legal music download markets.
Sony sacrificed PS3 to Blu-ray for that alone.
Control over Blu-ray royalties (if the format wins the "war", that is) can pay for 2 or 3 generations of Playstation's all by itself.


Having said this, the cleanliness of non-x86 designs may provide further flexibility to achieve a true hardware independence for the software layer, especially in a typical console environment.
Hence the managed code push, hence the hardware-assisted virtualization.
Maybe the diminished returns of new technology advances can be offset by greater flexibility inside what happens in a specific thread, and how that relates to the overall task (gaming, in this case).
Intel, IBM and AMD would have liked it was so simple, but when reality sets in, innovation can stall under the burden of adaptation to these new conditions, and we get the result in the form of relatively simple hardware concepts like the Wii and NDS beating the other systems due to high costs and lack of appeal of the software.


If i were to choose, i would have told MS to go for a highly clocked, branching-friendly, single-core, dual-threaded CPU, instead of 3 simple cores, with 2 simple threads each, and a tiny amount of L2 cache (partially shared with the GPU, on top of that).
The transistor cost would not have been that big, but the game could conceivably arrive with advanced features earlier, because developers would not need to center first on dividing it into 6 tasks to have performance, they would be able to follow a more conservative, time tested routine, and then evolve with the number of threads/cores.

Desktop PC game developers have been working with maybe one, 2, and 4 threads with lots of RAM for the last few years, but console developers come from a limited amount of RAM in a single thread at SD resolutions on the previous generation, to a still comparably small amount of RAM with 6 to 9 threads in a HD minimum resolution of 720p (at least internally).
 
Sony sacrificed PS3 to Blu-ray for that lone.

How does Cell compromise for Bluray? Cell was PS3's big ticket investment that is intended to give them a forward looking road map well past the life span of the PS3.

Sony did not spend all that money on Cell architecture R&D just for the PS3. They spent it because they intended to use it future platforms as well.

As for MS choosing a 3 core PPC from IBM this gen, that choice was a forced on them. They probably wanted to stick with an x86 CPU but could not find one that would have been competitive with Cell for comparable die size and power requirements.

As MS is a software company they have very little control over the CPU architectures road maps. The little control they do have is over the x86 architecture because they are the dominat OS on desktop platforms. For that reason, and the fact their previous console was x86, it would have made sense to stick with with x86.


The transistor cost would not have been that big, but the game could conceivably arrive with advanced features earlier, because developers would not need to center first on dividing it into 6 tasks to have performance

Historically, ease of use out the gate has not determined the outcome of a console's success. Consoles need to have enough gas in them to last 5-6 years. Making a point to choose a design that will make year 1 games look a little bit better seems shortsighted.
 
How does Cell compromise for Bluray? Cell was PS3's big ticket investment that is intended to give them a forward looking road map well past the life span of the PS3.

Ehm, I don't think he's talking about Cell here. IMO he's alluding to the allegeded delay of the PS3 launch due to BluRay.
 
PS4 development began around mid 2005. roughly one and a half years ago.

Sony announced future roadmap for CELL in 2005/2006, and also, joint development on future graphics with Nvidia in 2005. PS4 development is well underway, as is the next Xbox.


that said, the PS4 R&D that started in 2005 does not mean it will end up in the final PS4 that comes out in 2012ish,

I do not think that the nVIDIA's second collaboration with SCE, mentioned during 2005/2006 (while discussing RSX royalties and more), is about PLAYSTATION 4, but rather PSP2... all IMHO (no insider info on this one, just speculation).
 
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Historically, ease of use out the gate has not determined the outcome of a console's success. Consoles need to have enough gas in them to last 5-6 years. Making a point to choose a design that will make year 1 games look a little bit better seems shortsighted.

But if you have "enough" gas and an easy to develop for platform it will help carry you further and faster in the console space. (ps1, dc(-sega financial problems), wii, xb, even xb360 to an extent)

Without the ease of programing of ps1 it would not have had as much early success compared to saturn. It enabled them to build a large library of games early and with cost parity to saturn it became the easy choice for many which brought more games and snowballed.

DC could have seriously challenged ps2 if it had proper financial backing. The games library was built quickly because of its ease of programming and the low cost to make and sell could have helped it to snowball against ps2. But a combination of ps2 hype and a lack of financial stability on Sega's part killed it.

Wii is having phenominal success right now. Easy to program - library is building by the day. Will it have enough "gas"? We shall see. "Gas" may become less and less important in the following years and console generations though as it becomes more and more difficult/time-consuming/costly to get to the next graphics plateu.

XB360 may be a PITA to get the most out of but with MS tools devs seem to be able to get code in the system quickly.

I think ease-of-use/programmability will continue to play a role in the coming generations. It is odd looking back though how Sony designed ps1 to be so easy to program for and their next system they made a complete nightmare! Success for this platform I think was mostly due to hype early on as nothing on the system initially (ease-of-use/programming) was compelling enough to show what the system was capable of.
 
The thing is you can make a Wii quality game for the PS3 or xbox360 easier and probably cheaper than on the Wii itself. The only reason why the Wii seems to be a lower target is because it's potential is lower and users expectations are also lower.

Anyway, console wars are not won in the first year, much less the first few months. The Saturn held a lead in Japan for nearly 2 years over the Playstation. Sega had a lot of time to get their marketing and 3rd party outreach and tools together but they didn't. The N64's took off much faster than the PS in both Japan and the US on release. But lost steam after about a year.
 
I do not think that the nVIDIA's second collaboration with SCE, mentioned during 2005/2006 (while discussing RSX royalties and more), is about PLAYSTATION 4, but rather PSP2... all IMHO (no insider info on this one, just speculation).

Nvidia has a specific contract with Sony that is directly related to PSP2 / next-gen PSP. I didn't say that was for PS4. that said, Ken Kutaragi said in 2005 that SCEI and Nvidia have a roadmap for graphics that started with RSX. the PSP2 GPU must be part of that roadmap, but I do not doubt for a second that it stops with PSP2, and in fact, I'll bet you anything it goes all the way to PS4.

Nvidia, more specifically JJen-Hsun Huang has mentioned PS4 by name, officially. not that they have the contract, but that they'd love to be able to do the graphics for it. where else is SCEI going to turn? perhaps AMD/ATI, but for certain, won't go it alone again.

back in 2002-2003 the chances of Nvidia doing PS3 GPU seemed small but possible. in 2006-2007 the chances of Nvidia doing PS4 GPU are absolutely huge.
 
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