News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[MrFox]

Do you believe ram clocked at 2133 is fundamentally different from ram clocked at 1866? The lack of a an available consumer part is quite likely the lack of demand for such a part.

Of course not, it's called binning. And forget consumer parts.

The only 8Gb Micron part is MT41K512M16TNA, it's split into 2 bins: 125 and 107 (it's the cycle time, 1.07ns and 1.25ns, so 1600 and 1866).

However the 4Gb part is MT41J256M16HA is split into 4 bins: 125, 107, 93G and 93.
So the 4 bins are 1600, 1866, 2000 and 2133. It's the same silicon.

So the bins available for the 8Gb parts don't go above 1866. You claim they bin them to 2133 in large volume, and there's zero proof of that. It's not impossible, but you're the one claiming it exists, and an opinion is hardly a proof of it's existence.

 

[GrimThorne]

I expect Microsoft will go to at least 12Gb possibly 16GB on the 21th...it's just such a Microsoft thing to do. A hardware response is common for them.

Well you know what they say, swing for the moon and you'll definitely clear the fences

 

[AlphaWolf]

Of course not, it's called binning. And forget consumer parts.

The only 8Gb Micron part is MT41K512M16TNA, it's split into 2 bins: 125 and 107 (it's the cycle time, 1.07ns and 1.25ns, so 1600 and 1866).

However the 4Gb part is MT41J256M16HA is split into 4 bins: 125, 107, 93G and 93.
So the 4 bins are 1600, 1866, 2000 and 2133. It's the same silicon.

So the bins available for the 8Gb parts don't go above 1866. You claim they bin them to 2133 in large volume, and there's zero proof of that. It's not impossible, but you're the one claiming it exists, and an opinion is hardly a proof of it's existence.

Clearly you are correct and it is impossible to clock 8Gb density ram at 2133, it will never be available because you have decreed it.

And obviously MS does all their shopping off of available spec sheets.

 

[James Car]

How do we know how much R&D went into the APU vs Kinect, controllers, that SHAPE audio processor, software services etc?

True, we don't know.

We do know (or do we?) that it isn't off-the-shelf components and we do know that MS hired a good chunk of engineering talent geared toward apu development.

My only point wrt Trinity was that MS did decide to invest R&D into the box instead of a simple low cost solution.

 

[eastmen]

Clearly you are correct and it is impossible to clock 8Gb density ram at 2133, it will never be available because you have decreed it.

And obviously MS does all their shopping off of available spec sheets.

Ive been through the same thing with him. Its just not worth the time to reply to him anymore

 

[James Car]

And the usable data per frame has very little to do with the total texture memory budget....

And that's just textures.

Speaking of other uses for a large RAM pool, do you have any input on thresholds for RAM usage for things like voice recognition and skeletal tracking?

In other words, for ___MB we get a pool of X possible voice commands in Y languages/accents.

And for ___MB we can track X limbs with Y bones and Z joints.

Obviously servers would be ideal for a large voice database, but there is a lag associated that may not be desirable for interactive experiences. And this lag is even more of an issue with skeletal tracking.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

One thing that has bothered me quite a bit regarding the assumption that "MS doesn't care about spec/performance"...

when people say "performance", they mean a relatively high performance part compared to state-of-the-art. Obviously any decent hardware company is going to care about performance within their price bracket, and that's why Ms has made the choices they have. They gave themselves a silicon and BOM budget, and looked at ways to get better performance from that budget. This means RnD outlay to design an SOC that offers better priceerformance than any off-the-shelf part and will continue to provide the through subsequent engineering advances. So yes, MS do care about performance, and no, they don't, depending on how one uses the term. They clearly don't care about having high peak performance because years ago they settled on a 1.2 TF part instead of aiming for 2+ TF.

 

[Bagel seed]

To sum up, anything is possible but not everything is plausible. At some point it becomes a wishlist vs expectation thing.

 

[MrFox]

Clearly you are correct and it is impossible to clock 8Gb density ram at 2133, it will never be available because you have decreed it.

And obviously MS does all their shopping off of available spec sheets.

I don't see how this can be considered a mature discussion.

You claim a chip exists.
I present my doubts and ask for data, giving you everything I found that shaped my position.
... you go berserk and put words in my mouth.

My words above are:
"It's not impossible"
"Micron 8Gb 1.35v which could probably be used at 1.5v" to reach 2133.

 

[bkilian]

Speaking of other uses for a large RAM pool, do you have any input on thresholds for RAM usage for things like voice recognition and skeletal tracking?

In other words, for ___MB we get a pool of X possible voice commands in Y languages/accents.

And for ___MB we can track X limbs with Y bones and Z joints.

Obviously servers would be ideal for a large voice database, but there is a lag associated that may not be desirable for interactive experiences. And this lag is even more of an issue with skeletal tracking.

On the 360, voice commands used somewhere around 10-12MB, with an upper limit of a few dozen commands, with the ability to switch in new banks of commands. The fewer the commands, the better we can do at discriminating them, it's a completely statistical model, after all. Skeletal I'm not sure about but it was probably in the 10-20MB range.

The upper limit is not known, probably as much as you're given. it all depends on how you store the database, how much data you have, whether you're prioritizing accuracy or speed etc.

 

[Wynix]

You claim a chip exists.
I present my doubts and ask for data

But you agree with him, there is no need to ask for data when you both agree that the parts are obtainable.

 

[Cyan]

they're really not that far apart as is, both are low end gpu's really, and i think had sony not made the bold jump from 4-8gb, durango would have been on par regardless (more ram, less flops)

so i keep harkening back to the point that were it not for a shocking move very late, durango imo would have been as powerful as the competition. 8gb was pretty aggressive. there was a time when people on this board said 2gb and a 6670 was all we were gonna get next gen.

anyways i just disagree that ms doesn't care about performance, they showed with the move from 360 from 256 to 512 that they will change course, and greenberg's tweets are leading. at this point i'd be shocked if the specs are not upgraded come the 21st. but i do think it will be ram/clocks.

bkilian paints the pictures that execs didnt care about the specs, but i get this gut feeling hunch that they changed course after ps4 revealed 8gb, and higher ups like perhaps greenberg overruled lower downs if anything and specs were upped. I didn't post this Geenberg tweet before but it went with the smileyface

interesting that a pastebin posted in this thread a little ways back listed the final specs as 20 cu's, 384 bit, 12gb. i doubt that pastebin obviously because well, pastebin, but i find it a little interesting the thread tags have 384 bit/12gb in them.

I'd take his words with a grain of salt, but we shall see...

Also the Xbox Chief Marketing Officer has recently said this, which sounds fine to me, as if they want to focus on the core gamer:

Thanks Wayne for sharing the news

 

[MrFox]

But you agree with him, there is no need to ask for data when you both agree that the parts are obtainable.

Because I disagree about the speed available. The one I proposed is 1866, and I suggest they could overvolt them to make them pass at 2133, so it's a questionable choice for a mass production. It's basically overclocking memory.

I was corrected in a PM that he didn't claim 2133 existed either, so I guess it's just another case of miscomminucation.

If you want to have a mature discussion on a forum the first goddamn thing you need to do is learn to fucking read you jackass. Please feel free to point out where I said 8Gb 2133 was available. I said 8Gb density was available.

Now crawl back under your fucking self righteous rock you idiot.

This is my last post in this thread. Good bye.

 

[Grall]

But you agree with him, there is no need to ask for data when you both agree that the parts are obtainable.

They may be obtainable, just not in the quantities required for mass production of this magnitude. 2166 RAM for boutique DDR3 sticks for overclockers isn't much of an issue; 16 DDR3 chips per durango, times maybe ten million durangos per year, that's a lot of chips.

 

[Cyan]

Alas, not insider info, but there is a new service called Xbox Wire, managed by Lisa Gurry. It is an Xbox news service --thanks for the link Maxterchief.

http://news.xbox.com/

 

[eastmen]

They may be obtainable, just not in the quantities required for mass production of this magnitude. 2166 RAM for boutique DDR3 sticks for overclockers isn't much of an issue; 16 DDR3 chips per durango, times maybe ten million durangos per year, that's a lot of chips.

Of course it could be very easy to suppky if the majority of whats rolling off the lines worjs at 2166 speeds or even higher but are sold at lowe speeds due to demand

We all know that as time goes on yields / speeds go up and power/ cost go down

I dont know what micron can make but im sure if ms calls up and says hey we want this density chip at this speed and power envelope while hitting this proce and oh yeay we are going to buy wnoguh over the next 7 years for something like 70 million consoles. Micron will do thier best to hit tje targets

That could mean 2133 at 1.5v but if they can get more speed out of thier chips im sure that is an option for ms also

 

[Xenio]

If you want to have a mature discussion on a forum the first goddamn thing you need to do is learn to fucking read you jackass. Please feel free to point out where I said 8Gb 2133 was available. I said 8Gb density was available.

Now crawl back under your fucking self righteous rock you idiot.

This is my last post in this thread. Good bye.

Someone have to stop those "free insulting" guys to make a clean, civil, forum made of civil people
It is unacceptable! That must not be allowed to happen.

If someone are emotionally twisted by electronic things as consoles or gpu's, maybe it's better for you to quit posting in a "rumors" thread. Or make you a real life.




Xbox spotted?

http://news.xbox.com/~/media/Images/Media Assets/Home Page Assets/BSC_1018.jpg


after some blind deconvolution

just look at the symbol on the mirror

 

[Grall]

Of course it could be very easy to suppky if the majority of whats rolling off the lines worjs at 2166 speeds or even higher but are sold at lowe speeds due to demand

That's just baseless speculation.

We all know that as time goes on yields / speeds go up and power/ cost go down

Within reason. Performance bins typically won't rise dramatically, performance will be constrained according to design rules of the chip, and presumably the target wasn't a DRAM that runs at 2166 data rate, or yields would have been shit from the outset. The fastest devices always tend to be cream skimmed off the top, not the vast bulk of the production run (unless you're making something entirely trivial, of course.)

 

[eastmen]

That's just baseless speculation.


Within reason. Performance bins typically won't rise dramatically, performance will be constrained according to design rules of the chip, and presumably the target wasn't a DRAM that runs at 2166 data rate, or yields would have been shit from the outset. The fastest devices always tend to be cream skimmed off the top, not the vast bulk of the production run (unless you're making something entirely trivial, of course.)

But why make a 2166 ram ? What uses it ?

Intel chips even haswel use up to ddr 1600

amd uses ddr 3 1866

No consumer chip or other currently uses ddr 3 2166

So the bulk of your product is going to OEMs that don't need faster ram. So why advertise faster ram ?

 

[Bagel seed]

Are those porta potties on the outside? Preparation for people shitting themselves en masse upon reveal..?