News and Rumours: PS4

Do Rogue and A15 reach 250 gflops?

Because I was shocked to learn SGX543MP4, current mobile king, is only 28 gflops, 1/10 of PS360.
OK .You say that Uncharted on Vita looks x10 times worse than on PS3?

Llano + 7670 for PS4?
Nope, can't have that - way too low of an improvement. Is this what one of the Sony higherups meant by "programmable" silicon - a standard APU?

Here is hoping the rumour is wrong - I like the idea of an APU simply because it could help with effects like cloth simulation or other additional effects but having an APU just so you can use hybrid crossfire with another low-end discreet GPU doesn't sound like Sony. In fact I would have expected the Wii U to be that kind of spec, not the PS4!
:(
Look at PS3, it is almost the same concept, Cell like APU+RSX(lowend gpu)
of course I pray for Kaveri+7850 in PS4
 
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of course not, we can discuss only about graphics

Well first we need to know what both games are doing. How would uncharted look if the vita tried to render it? They aren't doing the same things. How many times better something looks is very subjective. How much more power they would need to render something much more complex, not as subjective.
 
Well first we need to know what both games are doing. How would uncharted look if the vita tried to render it? They aren't doing the same things. How many times better something looks is very subjective. How much more power they would need to render something much more complex, not as subjective.
What do you mean?uncharted looks like..... uncharted
I ask a question : Is a direct comparison of gflops, really can show us graphical superiority? And about uncharted I do not want go into ''deep forest'',in my opinion Vita version looks close to uncharted1
 
We can argue all day about bow close they look, but it doesn't get us anywhere. How much more performance would the vita need to render the same image as the ps3?

For example, blu-ray movies push around 6x the pixels of DVD movies, but I don't think many people would describe them as looking 6x as good.
 
We are talking about a system that will have to last at a minimum 5 years, perhaps more and with Sony touting 4k displays and the enthusiast wanting 1080p with some form of AA to improve picture quality and on top of that unique features that the current gen simply can't offer - yes it is disappointing.
Maybe I'm crazy for thinking this, but Sony could (at least theoretically) launch a somewhat anemic PS4 initially with specs kind of along the lines we've seen thus far, and then around when 4k displays arrive, issue a "turbo" PS4 re-release with same base architecture, same CPU and so on except for an uprated GPU with more and faster (video) RAM.

Both machines would be fully software compatible down to the register level, and the "turbo" version would not neccessarily run games any faster than the regular PS4 at standard HD resolutions, to not piss existing customers off (might be hard-capped, for example.)

Just a thought...
 
Maybe I'm crazy for thinking this, but Sony could (at least theoretically) launch a somewhat anemic PS4 initially with specs kind of along the lines we've seen thus far, and then around when 4k displays arrive, issue a "turbo" PS4 re-release with same base architecture, same CPU and so on except for an uprated GPU with more and faster (video) RAM.

Both machines would be fully software compatible down to the register level, and the "turbo" version would not neccessarily run games any faster than the regular PS4 at standard HD resolutions, to not piss existing customers off (might be hard-capped, for example.)

Just a thought...

Seems like a lot of effort just to please those 3 people that actually care about 4k.. It's really nice the industry found another buzzword but lets be realistic for a moment. Who cares? There are still plenty of people who don't even have flatscreens. Plenty of people still use analog tv or digital tv even below 720p. Lots of stuff isn't even recorded in HD yet. Besides, on a 40~50 inch tv, which is what most people will have as there just isn't a whole lot more room in most houses, are you really going to notice a big difference? It's not going to be much of a benefit for games either. As I said, you won't really see the difference so why spend all that extra power on pixels most people wont even see just to get the same image? I rather see them render at 1080p and use any extra power to actually make the game look better instead of just upping resolution.

The world shouldn't bother with 4k for atleast another 20 years and just make sure everything is 1080p first.
 
Do Rogue and A15 reach 250 gflops?

Because I was shocked to learn SGX543MP4, current mobile king, is only 28 gflops, 1/10 of PS360.

I think the rating is ~38GFlops@300MHz. Still falls far short of the GPU in the 360 or PS3 but if you take clock speed and Wattage into account e.g. bring the console GPUs down to the same level of power usage per watt at a given clock speed I think you'll find the PVR chips are ahead of the game.
 
That is like saying that an ARM chip, if you ramp up the level of power usage and clocks to match an Intel i5 chip you would see ARM is way ahead of the game in terms of performance per mm^2.
 
That is like saying that an ARM chip, if you ramp up the level of power usage and clocks to match an Intel i5 chip you would see ARM is way ahead of the game in terms of performance per mm^2.

It's an apples to oranges comparison I know but it just highlights the differences in design. But, for pure speculation, if you were to ramp the ARM up to i5 wattage and clocks, how many cores would you need? I reckon a 16 core ARM would beat an i5 whilst using a similar wattage at the same clocks.
 
Architecturally ARM chips are not designed to reach those sort of frequencies. e.g. The Intel Netburst architecture had a long pipeline to allow it to scale to higher clocks with tradeoffs elsewhere (like the long pipeline). But even if it could scale to the same clocks (and I bet the power usage would be out of control) you still have a basic issue of performance. This issue was discussed in another thread in the PC section where at even at even same clocks on real code an ARM chip would by lucky to be half as fast as a Bulldozer chip--not to speak of an i5.

ARM is great because they are small (which means they are much less robust) and have an amazing power envelope. Making it a more robust chip (Adding large caches, OOOe, SIMD, etc) and ramping up the frequency is totally outside of what ARM chips do well--you basically no longer have an ARM processor.

Same applies to PVR. AMD/NV are pretty close to performance per-mm^2 and per-Watt as well as in the ballpark on bandwidth depending on design. If PVR could walk right in and trounce them they would. Instead they have a GREAT design for low power needs and lower bandwidth systems (the exact OPPOSITE design considerations AMD/NV have been functioning in). Toss out a 300mm^2 PVR chip against other 300mm^2 chips with a total GPU power budget of 250-300W and unless the PVR chip is a new architecture designed to take advantage of the large die size and large power envelope I don't believe (don't kill me kindly, friendly, and wonderful PVR posters here) it is going to compete. Just like scaling down a GCN or Kepler into the same Power and Die Size constraints to a PVR is going to be a BLOOD BATH. PVR is going to mop the floor with AMD/NV in that situation until AMD/NV have architectures designed to the constraints of that market.
 
OK .You say that Uncharted on Vita looks x10 times worse than on PS3?


Look at PS3, it is almost the same concept, Cell like APU+RSX(lowend gpu)
of course I pray for Kaveri+7850 in PS4
Well that would be nice indeed but at least the hd7850 part you can forget about it.
The part come with a 256 bits bus.
Kaveri, if Sony really launch in 2013 I'm not sure they would make that bet. It supposed to launch sometime in 2013 say AMD is late... And it's not like AMD has pushed anything in time in the CPU realm in the last years :cry:
 
Architecturally ARM chips are not designed to reach those sort of frequencies. e.g. The Intel Netburst architecture had a long pipeline to allow it to scale to higher clocks with tradeoffs elsewhere (like the long pipeline). But even if it could scale to the same clocks (and I bet the power usage would be out of control) you still have a basic issue of performance. This issue was discussed in another thread in the PC section where at even at even same clocks on real code an ARM chip would by lucky to be half as fast as a Bulldozer chip--not to speak of an i5.

ARM is great because they are small (which means they are much less robust) and have an amazing power envelope. Making it a more robust chip (Adding large caches, OOOe, SIMD, etc) and ramping up the frequency is totally outside of what ARM chips do well--you basically no longer have an ARM processor.

I guess if you were to just scale the architecture up you would need to bolt on all the power hungry features a modern CISC processor needs to reach their current performance levels. But if you were to do this you may as well use a RISC designed for that purpose e.g. the Power series or more likely the SPARC T4.

I was just making a base extrapolation; if the i7 has a TDP of 103W and the A9 has a TDP of 1.9W, that means you could be running ~64 quad core A9's in that envelope.

As for the PVR series, well that would be the same kind of thought experiment but I'm sure there are better qualified people at Beyond3d to follow that track!!
 
I was just making a base extrapolation; if the i7 has a TDP of 103W and the A9 has a TDP of 1.9W, that means you could be running ~64 quad core A9's in that envelope.

What are you going to do with a memory bus? I am seeing 2 and 4 core ARM Cortex A9's with 1x32bit LPDDR3 and 2x32bit LPDDR3 modules. Now you project a 64 core processor (16x-32x more cores) so now you need to have a memory bus capable of feeding all those cores. You also are now in a situation where you need to coordinate traffic, caches, etc. There is a reason we are seeing beefy L2s and even beefier L3s (and even L4s) on the high end CPUs: you need to keep them fed somehow. A number of developers here have talked about how strong memory subsystems and hierarchies, which are really hard to do, are more important than straight up execution units. You also have an issue of cross traffic and communication with so many cores (hence all the work on latices, grids, and such on the Intel's demo TFLOPs initiative). And then there is Amdahl's Law. You are going to be looking at IPC per core, if I was being really generous (assuming they beefed up the core and added a full fledged FPU support on part with AVX) at half of a single iCore processor. When you are looking at 6 core (12 threads) with a much better IPC you will see the Intel Core_0 at 100% utilization what will probably take 3 or 4 of these ramped up ARM cores to do because as you spread the workload you get diminishing returns. That is where the cache issues and memory bus really come into play because what Intel is doing on 1 core the ARM chip has 4 cores trying to communicate with each other and contending for memory resources.

There would be certain loads where pretty naive ARM cores would be great; e.g. in a basic webserver where you get a lot of request without a ton of dependencies (think serving pages or logged in users in a very low resource intensive environment) this could be a win. You could basically ramp up 64 virtual machines that are on 64 real processors. But game code? At least SPEs had a memory model (Local Store, basically 256KB of very fast local memory) and a ring bus (EIB) for memory traffic that addressed some issues--and when exploited they were really fast (just hard to maximize). Basically ARM would need a really radical design change to not only compete at the high frequencies you talk about but ALSO need a radical redesign for the entire memory systems. Just throwing 64 cores on a die and calling it good would be a disaster! And the cost of all the fancy upgrades isn't going to be cheap. Color be skeptical that an ARM architecture with a similar mm^2 and power budget as a i5 or i7 would be able to compete without it become something completely different than it is.
 
What are you going to do with a memory bus? I am seeing 2 and 4 core ARM Cortex A9's with 1x32bit LPDDR3 and 2x32bit LPDDR3 modules. Now you project a 64 core processor (16x-32x more cores) so now you need to have a memory bus capable of feeding all those cores. You also are now in a situation where you need to coordinate traffic, caches, etc. There is a reason we are seeing beefy L2s and even beefier L3s (and even L4s) on the high end CPUs: you need to keep them fed somehow. A number of developers here have talked about how strong memory subsystems and hierarchies, which are really hard to do, are more important than straight up execution units. You also have an issue of cross traffic and communication with so many cores (hence all the work on latices, grids, and such on the Intel's demo TFLOPs initiative). And then there is Amdahl's Law. You are going to be looking at IPC per core, if I was being really generous (assuming they beefed up the core and added a full fledged FPU support on part with AVX) at half of a single iCore processor. When you are looking at 6 core (12 threads) with a much better IPC you will see the Intel Core_0 at 100% utilization what will probably take 3 or 4 of these ramped up ARM cores to do because as you spread the workload you get diminishing returns. That is where the cache issues and memory bus really come into play because what Intel is doing on 1 core the ARM chip has 4 cores trying to communicate with each other and contending for memory resources.

There would be certain loads where pretty naive ARM cores would be great; e.g. in a basic webserver where you get a lot of request without a ton of dependencies (think serving pages or logged in users in a very low resource intensive environment) this could be a win. You could basically ramp up 64 virtual machines that are on 64 real processors. But game code? At least SPEs had a memory model (Local Store, basically 256KB of very fast local memory) and a ring bus (EIB) for memory traffic that addressed some issues--and when exploited they were really fast (just hard to maximize). Basically ARM would need a really radical design change to not only compete at the high frequencies you talk about but ALSO need a radical redesign for the entire memory systems. Just throwing 64 cores on a die and calling it good would be a disaster! And the cost of all the fancy upgrades isn't going to be cheap. Color be skeptical that an ARM architecture with a similar mm^2 and power budget as a i5 or i7 would be able to compete without it become something completely different than it is.

It's a given that there would have to be some severe architectural changes made to way in which the ARM connects. But a series of low powered cores would seem to be the logical way to go as opposed to a series of monolithic cores.

The TILE Gx100 uses a series of stacked tiles to produce a low powered 100 core device. Perhaps that's the kind of route ARM would need to take? The most I have ever delved into this was a Beowulf cluster I built from old 486DX100's.
 
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